Hi, I am due to have my litter of medium breeds 1st vaccination soon, I know this is normally done at 8weeks old, but I have spoken to 1 vets who said they do it at 7weeks old.

Does anyone know if this is safe for puppies to have their 1st jabs at 7weeks or is it best to wait till 8weeks????

All advise would be appriciated,

Cheers guys xxxx

it is fine if your pups havnt feed from mum for at least 2weeks the reason is they have mums anti bodies so the vacc dont work when weve had pups at 7-8 weeks old i wait till their at least 9weeks so mums anti bodies have gone ...plus make sure new familys vets do the same vacc ot they will be started again and more cemicals in pups small body ...i know you didnt ask but just incase :) x

Thank you, they are weaning well, but do like thee odd suckle from mum when they can get it, although she is only letting them about once a day now, I think with 8 of them pulling her she has had enough (and quite right to). 

The vet said they use Vanguard,  have you ever heard of this brand of vaccination??

yes ive used that with pups before fine will you be doing both ?? or do new owners vets use same?x

I will let all new owners know before I have them done just incase, now I know its ok to use

Thank you xxx

your welcome :) x

Unless I'm keeping a puppy long enough to complete the full vaccination course, I don't have the first vaccination done because most Vets will insist on a puppy starting a complete new course if they don't stock the same brand as the first vaccination. :(

I also find that because I don't keep the bitch away from the puppies - her training is so important to their canine development - I wouldn't want to give the first vaccination before 8 weeks at the earliest.

I also would not do it as most vets will insist on re-starting the vaccinations again with the new owners.....  I'm very against over vaccinating.

I would not for preference do them until 10 then 12 weeks, or if you must do them early (because there is an outbreak of parvo etc locally) then 8 and 12.  Waiting for the final vaccination until 12 weeks makes it more likely that maternal antibodies will have waned enough for the vaccine to take.

Early vaccination is appropriate for pups who have been hand reared or taken away from their mothers very early, so not benefiting from mothers milk fully.

A regular poster on this board had her pup fully vaccinated at 8 and 10 weeks and she then developed Parvovirus.  After her recovery titre tests showed the only thing that she had titre for was parvo (she would as she had suffered it) and none of the other vaccines had taken.

Here are the WSAVA recommendations: http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf

Also it is very likely that the pups new owners vets may start the vaccination course all over again if they use a different brand of vaccine, as there are quite a few different ones out there these days, result over vaccination of a puppy at a vulnerable stressful time (changing homes).  For this reason I never home a part vaccinated pup away from me, either they have none or both.

Here is more to consider on this issue: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/

I also do not vaccinate my puppies prior to leaving me as I am horrified that vets will insist on starting a new course on such young animals.  When I bought in a pup recently, her breeder suggested waiting until 10 weeks to start vaccinations which I did and she was absolutely fine.  I will, in future give this advice to my new puppy owners.

With my breed I do them 8 and 10 weeks.

The same stock brand is a load of rubbish, I was told this by the manufacturer, they say the vaccine is all the same, just different company labels on it, like asprin and paracetamol.

This is what Virbac said to me:

Hi Sharon

I can hereby guarantee absolutely that Canigen dog vaccine is exactly the same as Nobivac etc - just a different label. If you have any trouble in this regard please ask your consulting vet to contact us at 01359 243243.

Best regards

Chris Taylor BVSc MRCVS
Technical Director, Virbac Limited
Tel: 01359 243 243
Fax: 01359 243 200

My own vet will not vaccinate before 8 weeks of age.

That may well be correct as regards these vaccines but just as an aside I hope nobody reading this ever thinks aspirin and paracetamol are the same. They are not just different company labels, these are two very different generic drugs.

That's actually not what I was saying, I was saying for example that Tesco asprin OR paracetamol are exactly the same as Asda asprin OR paracetamol just different labels.

That's all well and good but many of the manufacturers data sheets have a line saying something like "the efficacy of this product when combined with other brands has not been tested".  As such many vets will not go against the data sheet and so will not mix vaccines in case they get sued.

and of course if there is an adverse vaccine reaction which vaccine manufacturer is responsible/is the reaction to?

From the Nobivac data sheet:
Primary coursevaccination

A single injection should establish active immunity to canine distemper, infectious canine hepatitis and disease caused by canine parvovirus infection in dogs of 10 weeks of age or older.   Where earlier protection is required a first dose may be given to puppies from 6 weeks of age, but because maternally derived passive antibody can interfere with the response to vaccination a final dose at 10 weeks of age or older is generally recommended. For an optimal response to the parainfluenza component, animals should be vaccinated twice, 2-4 weeks apart with the final vaccination at 10 weeks of age or more.

So if I wait until 10 weeks for the first vaccination a week later they will be likely fully protected except against Lepto and Parainfluenza where for optimum protection two vaccines are needed.

So my later vaccinated puppy can be taken out at 11weeks after the first vaccination, and be protected from the 'core' most serious diseases (and at that age contact with Lepto and Parainfluenza are less likely), where my 8 weeks vaccinated puppy will still need to wait until 11 weeks because it is likely that the first vaccine will not have taken, and have been largely a waste of time and possibly detrimental to a stressed (changing homes) immature pup.

One of course would wisely make oneself aware of any local disease outbreaks, when considering  age appropriate socialisation.

> That's actually not what I was saying, I was saying for example that Tesco asprin OR paracetamol are exactly the same as Asda asprin OR paracetamol just different labels.

I see :)  I'm sure it doesn't hurt to clarify though :)

>So my later vaccinated puppy can be taken out at 11weeks after the first vaccination, and be protected from the 'core' most serious diseases (and at that age contact with Lepto and Parainfluenza are less likely), where my 8 weeks vaccinated puppy will still need to wait until 11 weeks

So that means your pups get taken out at 11 weeks, regardless of whether they were vaccinated at 8 or 10 weeks, and without being fully vaccinated against lepto (which can be contracted from your back garden if you have rats in the vicinity, which most people, whether urban or rural, have)?

I quite understand SharonM - but we are really talking about our new puppy owners who will think that their vet knows best.  I don't think I would have had the courage to diasgree with my vet when I had my first puppy.

>So that means your pups get taken out at 11 weeks, regardless of whether they were vaccinated at 8 or 10 weeks

Yes as in either case they should be protected for the diseases covered by core vaccines, but not optimally covered for Lepto and Parainfluenza.

I take my vaccinated and unvaccinated puppies out and about from before 8 weeks of age avoiding any high risk areas (carried until 11 - 12 weeks).

Of course all the time the pups are small I still lead my life the dogs get their usual walks, so the risks are no greater.

They probably would not be in high densisty canine areas until 12 weeks, and then only trainign classes,as for a logn whiel yet they can only walk a short distance, and I woudl nto expose a very young puppy to unrestricted dog walking areas, where contact with others is not in a controlled environment.

As you say these same pups could come into contact with lepto from 4 weeks of age as they go out in the garden, and we all know that most of us are close to rats, whether aware of it or not.

>I take my vaccinated and unvaccinated puppies out and about from before 8 weeks of age avoiding any high risk areas (carried until 11 - 12 weeks).

Ah, I misunderstood; I thought you meant you took them out on the ground before their second lepto vax, not that you were carrying them. My mistake, sorry! :-)

Mine are too big and heavy to carry far after about 10 weeks so I want them on the ground as soon as is safe.

I take mine out from 1 week after 1st vaccination, on the ground and everywhere.  Never had a single puppy contract any disease and will continue in this vein.

Another one here that goes 10 weeks and 12 weeks.  Any pups leaving are vaccinated when the new owner decides.  Pups I am keeping are allowed to continue interacting with mum.  I have a breed that allows comfort suckles for ages. 

I do exactly as rabid.

> I take mine out from 1 week after 1st vaccination, on the ground and everywhere

Many people have rats (and foxes) in their garden - maybe rurally near to horses etc etc

i for one have rats ,mice and foxes come onto my garden its a worry thats for sure.

Hi, I bred the puppy mentioned by Brainless. I did a lot of research into puppy vaccines after she became ill, even contacting Professor Schultz in America who was very helpful.

I have another litter of week old puppies from the same parents (not advertising as all spoken for) and will be stressing to their new owners to hold off until puppy is 10 weeks old to get their first jab due to maternal antibodies.

We go through life blissfully accepting that our puppies/dogs are going to be fully protected when inoculated but with what happened to Fay I don't know if I believe this to be true but that's another matter.

biffsmum, I once went to a seminar where a Vet from Intervet (nobivac) was on the stage with Chris Day the homeopathic Vet.  And the Intervet Vet told us that even after the 8/12 week regime, which was the recommended system at the time, 2 out of every 5 puppies vaccinated didn't accept the vaccine because of maternal immunity.  Add that to the fact that the leptosirosis vaccine only lasts for a maximum of 7 months and so no dogs are protected against that for almost half of each year, natural immunity must be doing a good job keeping all our dogs healthy.  :)
Having listened to both of them for 3 hours, that was the day in 1996, that me and 98 other people attending (one was too frightened not to keep doing what she'd always done. :) ) gave up vaccinating and followed Chris Day's routine.

It was around mid 90's that we would only vaccinate our Pom's with the Nobivac vaccine after losing many soon after vaccination.  With the Pom's in them days as we do no (though not had a litter for a number of years) that the earliest we would vaccinate was 10 weeks.  We were advised at that time by a very old Pom breeder who we luckily met whilst on hol's in South Wales to not vaccinate with any other vaccine, touch wood since then we never ever lost another Pomeranian after vaccination.  We also have only ever vaccinated our dogs with the puppy vaccine.

> Add that to the fact that the leptosirosis vaccine only lasts for a maximum of 7 months

That may have been the case in 1996 but I understand the current vaccine now has an extended period covering for around 12 months. 

> one was too frightened not to keep doing what she'd always done.

I'm not sure I would want to abandon vaccination on the basis that some puppies do not achieve immunity at the first regime either.  You could leave them all for several more weeks and hope they have neither lost their maternal immunity nor encountered risk or you can give at a reasonable age to assume many will have lost their immunity and protect as many of the herd as possible thus hope to protect the others.

The current leptospirosis does now last for 12 months but we made our decisions 'in the light of current knowledge' as they say.

I was also part of the clinical trials when Nobivac was first produced.  With the experience that I had, I made my decision just as everyone else is at liberty to do, and have been happy with it ever since. 

But as the OP asked, one vaccine at 7 weeks when the pups still have maternal immunity is not a good idea.

> but we made our decisions 'in the light of current knowledge' as they say.
>

I understand that but the point is we should perhaps keep our decisions current too :)
I do agree, however, that 7 weeks is probably going to be too early for the average hobby bred litter where full weaning is unlikely to have been early.

The info I posted is as current as 2010.

From the Puppy shots article of 2011:

Pfizer performed an interesting field study in 1996. C. Hoare, P. DeBouck and A. Wiseman assessed vaccinated puppies and split them into two groups.  Group A received a single vaccination at 12 weeks and Group B received a first vaccine between 8 to 10 weeks and a second at 12 weeks.  When titers were measured, 100% of the puppies vaccinated once at 12 weeks seroconverted whereas only 94% of the puppies in Group B seroconverted - despite receiving two vaccines as opposed to one.  It would appear that if the first vaccine is given too early it could, in some cases, block the the second vaccine.  So vaccinating your puppy twice not only increases his risk for adverse reactions to the vaccine, it appears to make vaccination less effective overall.

Vanguard also tested the Parvovirus response in their combination vaccine. They vaccinated puppies at 6 weeks, 9 weeks and 12 weeks of age and then measured their response to the vaccine by measuring their titers to Parvovirus. At 6 weeks, only 52% of the puppies had seroconverted, meaning that the puppies vaccinated at 6 weeks of age would get all of the risk from the vaccine and none of the benefit because their maternal antibodies inactivated the vaccine. At 9 weeks, 88% of the puppies showed a response to the vaccine. At 12 weeks, 100% of the puppies were protected.

It appears that 12 weeks would be the magic number where vaccines have a nearly 100% chance of working, meaning that your puppy should only need one - for his entire life. Dr. Schultz has done similar research with the distemper vaccine.

In his study at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, designed to mimic an animal shelter environment, Dr. Schultz vaccinated with one dose of Distemper vaccine just four hours prior to the puppies being placed in a room with Distemper-infected/diseased dogs. All of the puppies (which were vaccinated at 12 weeks), were protected against distemper in this challenge study.

There is no easy answer and you're juggling risks whatever way you look at it.  By far the greatest risk for me is having a dog which isn't as well socialised as it could be.  Which is why I do 1st jab and then out and about immediately a week later. 

I'd also do the full booster shot.  And then no more. 

I would think about delaying the 2nd jab to be after 12wks, in the light of recent changes and findings about maternal antibodies.  However, what I'm seeing at classes is:  Vets having changed to the 8wks and 12wks protocol, but still giving the same old advice about 'not taking puppy out till 1 week after 2nd vaccination'.  This then means pups are 13-14wks before they first go outside.  It is crazy, I'm seeing some very disturbed puppies at class as a result.  If they want to move to 12wks for 2nd jab, fair enough - but they need to revise their advice to owners about taking them out, or at least explain there are ways they can 'take them out' without putting them down on the ground.

> but they need to revise their advice to owners about taking them out,

If the first jab is at 10 weeks then in all likelihood it is fine to get them out in suitable places from a week later at 11 weeks, which is the advice of my main (not UK trained) vet.

All owners should be advised to carry their pup around from when they get it, and take it for car/bus rides, sit outside the shopping centre.

Human babies are not isolated until they have had their full course of vaccinations at 6 months, and in fact the new baby is exposed to more people than at any time, everyone passing the baby around cooing over it etc.

I understand that but the point is we should perhaps keep our decisions current too :-)
I do agree, however, that 7 weeks is probably going to be too early for the average hobby bred litter where full weaning is unlikely to have been early.

My decision is current and has worked very well for me since 1996.  I had my dogs' titre tested for a few years and all had high readings - they had developed their own immunity.  As Brainless has explained above, humans need to develop their own immunity too. :)

And the bad decision about vaccinating a 7 week old puppy has nothing to do with weaning.  It's because the pup will still be carrying the dam's immunity.

>they had developed their own immunity

That proves that there's a high enough level of the virus in the environment to trigger an outbreak if enough people stop vaccinating, in the same way that we get measles outbreaks (currently at an 18-year high) when the uptake of vaccination falls.

> As Brainless has explained above, humans need to develop their own immunity too

No, like she said, babies are vaccinated.  Their vaccination regime is not completed as early as puppies, although the first is given at two months, but then we do not expect them to crawl along pavements and sniff at other babies wee. :)

> we do not expect them to crawl along pavements and sniff at other babies wee. :-)

They certainly spend and awful lot of time crawling on floors, putting everything in their mouths, being kissed by all and sundry, and will be around other coughing, sneezing human beings who are the most likely to pass on disease.

They will be attending baby clinics, mother and baby groups, and toddler groups, and then the hotbeds of infection Nursery and School.

> They certainly spend and awful lot of time crawling on floors

We start protecting them from diseases before they get to that stage.  Human diseases do not precisely match those of dogs so you would not expect to have exactly the same vaccination regimes but, as with dogs, they are given as soon as it is reasonably safe to do so.
At baby clinics the staff will be at great pains to wash hands etc between babies and vaccination will have commenced well before nursery school.
When you look at the history of childhood diseases in this country and until very recent times in the third world I am not sure that anyone can undervalue the benefits that vaccination has brought.  Building resistance to common bacterias is one thing but the diseases we vaccinate against are quite another.

That wasn't the point though, we do not isolate unvaccinated babies from society, to avoid disease, quite the reverse.

> we do not isolate unvaccinated babies from society, to avoid disease, quite the reverse.

Sorry, I added something regarding that very point to my last post :)

We have two separate issues here that have traditionally been linked in the UK, vaccination of puppies and isolation/socialisation.

Now interestingly enough breeders and owners I know in the USA follow the protocols much closer to those in the WSAVA document and final vaccinations are not completed until after 16 weeks and Rabies often later again, yet puppies are still taken out and socialised, so obviously before the vaccination course is complete.

http://www.petprofessionalguild.com/Resources/Documents/Puppy%20Socialization%20and%20Vaccinations%20Go%20Together.pdf

You can also look at Sweden. The great majority of people live in flats. It's nowhere near as common as here to live in a house. So puppies HAVE to be taken outside and put on the ground (common ground used by all dog owners in the area) several times a day from day ONE, as otherwise they could never go to toilet at all for weeks.  But there aren't lots of puppies dying.

I wonder what the compliance rate for vaccination is in these other countries.  Are they, perhaps, emerging into a world where they will rarely meet an unvaccinated adult?
I do think there is a balance of risk and for some breeds the benefits of getting out earlier will be greater than for others but clearly the risk is reduced with a greater compliance with vaccine regimes for adults.

>Now interestingly enough breeders and owners I know in the USA follow the protocols much closer to those in the WSAVA document and final vaccinations are not completed until after 16 weeks and Rabies often later again, yet puppies are still taken out and socialised,

Of course in the US many dogs, even as adults, don't get daily walks and certainly don't get allowed off lead at all (according to my US friends and relatives) because of the leash laws, so aren't expected to have the same degree of sociability with other dogs that ours are here. Also if a puppy scratches or draws blood mouthing a person it often has to be isolated until a titre test has shown it has rabies immunity.

That proves that there's a high enough level of the virus in the environment to trigger an outbreak if enough people stop vaccinating,

To me it means that IF the diseases are around, then the important thing is with a good immune system, encouraged by minimum chemicals and a natural diet, then dogs can fight the disease themself and so develop their own immunity.

To me it's poor immune systems that causes the problem. :)

I had rats in the garden for 3 years - (not out of choice, the Council Ratman was a visitor every 2 weeks during that time!) without any ill effects.

Everytime that there was a report in my local newspaper, it happened regularly twice a year, I would ring the Vet mentioned and ask if it had been comfirmed.  In every single case, a variety of practices would agree that they'd had a number of dogs with bloody diarrhea that had not been sent for lab confirmation.  I've smelt parvo diarrhea over 30 years ago - it has a very particular smell.  None of the Vets knew what I was talking about!  And I can't remember the last time I heard of a confirmed case of distemper or hardpad.  If there has been then it's very rare and certainly not worth me subjecting my dogs to vaccination for.

So each of us has to make our own decisions based on our own experiences and take responsibilty for those desicions. :)

That proves that there's a high enough level of the virus in the environment to trigger an outbreak if enough people stop vaccinating,

Viruses continually change and the vaccine is never made for the current strain.  To me it means that IF the diseases are around, then the important thing is with a good immune system, encouraged by minimum chemicals and a natural diet, then dogs can fight the disease themself and so develop their own immunity.

For me it's poor immune systems that causes the problem. :)

I had rats in the garden for 3 years - (not out of choice, the Council Ratman was a visitor every 2 weeks during that time!) without any ill effects to any of my dogs, young and old.

Everytime that there was a report in my local newspaper, it happened regularly twice a year, I would ring the Vet mentioned and ask if it had been comfirmed.  In every single case, a variety of practices would agree that they'd had a number of dogs with bloody diarrhea that had not been sent for lab confirmation.  I've smelt parvo diarrhea over 30 years ago - it has a very particular smell.  None of the Vets knew what I was talking about!  And I can't remember the last time I heard of a confirmed case of distemper or hardpad.  If there has been then it's very rare and certainly not worth me subjecting my dogs to vaccination for.

My dogs mixed (through an open window but often nose to nose) with up to 10 different dogs a day in the grooming parlour.  At shows, I've no idea of the percentage but many breeders use nosodes and do not vaccinate their dogs so mine must have come into contact with all sorts over the years and still never needed veterinary treatment.  My daughter has a 10 year old who has only ever been to the Vet to be spayed.  Her previous old bitch was over 14 and had never seen a Vet in her life!

So each of us has to make our own decisions based on our own experiences and take responsibilty for those desicions, and I've never been a sheep and accepted everything I was told without doing my own investigations. :)

But this thread is about early vaccination, which is not a good idea before 10 weeks. :)

>If the first jab is at 10 weeks then in all likelihood it is fine to get them out in suitable places from a week later at 11 weeks, which is the advice of my main (not UK trained) vet.

Brainless, yes, but the vets where I live have switched to brands of vaccine which say that jabs should be given at 8 and 12wks.  They used to give them at 7 and 10wks.  They say they have switched because of the possibility of maternal antibodies at 10wks.  Which is all well and good, but they can't then keep the same outdated behavioural advice about not taking pup out till 1 wk after 2nd jab, or we're going to have some very badly socialised puppies.  (Already seeing them, in fact.)

> the vets where I live have switched to brands of vaccine which say that jabs should be given at 8 and 12wks.

Actually it isn't should but can be given at 8 and 12 weeks, they equally well can be given at 9 or 10 and then 12 weeks.  There should be at least 2 and no more than 4 weeks between vaccinations.

They re giving the first early because people have become used to asking for it then (20+ years ago no pup was vaccinated before 10 weeks, except with parvo as early as 6 weeks if there was a local outbreak near a breeder), but acknowledging that it is safer to give one at 12 weeks because of maternal antibodies.  Giving two at 7 - 8 and 10 may mean neither takes.

What is outdated is the isolation/socialisation advice a separate issue.  To be honest no very young puppy under 3 months during the socialisation window should be taken to high risk disease environments as these are also likely to be unsuitable socialisation environments too.  The 5 minute per month of life excersise rule should in itself preclude the pup being taken very far on it's own four feet.