I am just about to register Esme's 2nd and final litter. Her first litter were born naturally but she had to have a c-section to remove a final large, dead pup. When I go to register the litter online there is now a question asking about previous c-sections. Will I need to register the first litter as being born by c-section, as they weren't technically born by c-section, only the final dead puppy was? This litter was born by caesarian (and she was spayed so there will be no more litters anyway) so I will declare this, not sure if the 1st one needs recording?

I think the 1st litter should have been registered as a c-section. As regardless of a dead / alive puppy, the vet performed a C-section operation.

But as i wasn't a requirement to specify i assume when she had the 1st section and as she has since been spayed id just register this one as a c-section.

> But as i wasn't a requirement to specify i assume when she had the 1st section

The question asked is about previous sections not just after the requirement was introduced.  I think it is always best to be honest. 
Perhaps a call to the KC to explain the circumstances and an offer to provide veterinary confirmation.  I don't think the KC is intracable about these things going by their flexibility regarding age in particular instances, for example.

> The question asked is about previous sections

To which i said yes it should have been recorded as a section

> I think it is always best to be honest. 

I agree but im not sure if/how the KC will now record it?

I have spoken to the KC and as she had the procedure, regardless of the 7 pups born naturally, it does need to be recorded as a c-section for the 1st litter, so that's what I've done. :)

Sorry, Claire, I thought you meant it may not now need to be mentioned if it was before the new requirements so not to declare it. :)

As I understand it all c/sections should be declared whether before date this became a requirement, you can't just start with a clean slate,your girl has had 2 now so no problem registering the pups. The only problem would be if she had already had 2 c/sections and went on and had another litter,regardless of how it was whelped the pups would not be registered.

Same with litter registration, you can't register 4 litters from the date the new rules came in, all past litters to that bitch are taken into the count.

Also the reason for thesection is lso recorded, emergency or planned.

> The only problem would be if she had already had 2 c/sections and went on and had another litter,regardless of how it was whelped the pups would not be registered.

I thought they would not register a 3rd from a C section. Do they not register a naturally whelped litter after 2 sections either?

> I thought they would not register a 3rd from a C section. Do they not register a naturally whelped litter after 2 sections either?

No, as you would have no way of knowing in advance if another C section were needed, that is the only reason they allow two. 

The vets would have liked it to be one C section no more breeding, the KC and sensible breeders know that a C section can occur for many reasons, so a second chance can be given to a bitch to hopefully whelp naturally.

Of my won two bitches that have had C sections both were having their third and last litters, after two easy natural whelpings..

After two C sections why would anyone even want to risk breeding from a bitch again, even if the rules allowed it.

I think in the future I would only have the one litter from a bitch who had had a c-section. I did think with Esme producing 7 puppies naturally and only having had the caesarean to remove a large, dead pup we may have been OK this time. The breed is very much a dog-shaped dog, no extremes and reasonably easy whelpers.

It very much depends on the reason for the c/section as to whether I would put the same bitch through another, malpresentation of a pup, over exhaustion from an overly large litter, Secondry Inertia etc. I would give her another go, Primary Inertia due to single pup or overly large litter I would consider another go, Primary Inertia with no obvious cause I would not as this could be hereditary and as I would be wanting to keep back a bitch I wouldn't want this to then run in my line.

Had a Pomeranian need a C-section and then have their next litter naturally.