Hi everyone

I'm not to sure if I'm posting this in the right place now? Maybe it should be under 'health'?

We visited the vets again yesterday, it had been 6 days since we were there last. I saw a more senior vet who I have seen and spoken to a few times over the last few years.

As soon as I walked in to his office I told him straight away that I wasn't here to have her PTS, that I wanted him to give me all the facts and the reality of the situation.

In a nutshell, he's not entirely sure what is going on either. He examined her throroughly and he said that her joints all seem to be in the correct place (he performs orthopaedic operations). He said that realistically, her other three legs should be working to pull her up to standing, but they aren't so he thinks she is still weak in all of her limbs. He said an X-ray wouldn't show anything and that a support would be more of a hindrance. He thinks that with physio, she will manage to walk eventually. He also said that she was quite fat and that this won't be helping - I can see his point, she is a lb heavier than what the boys were when they started walking so it will make things harder. One of my own children, my 3rd, was very very overweight as a baby, and not through being over fed or badly fed, she had tests and it was put down to a very slow metabolism. She was put in a 'diet' of sorts at 9 months. Because she was so heavy, she couldn't pull herself up to stand, and walked at 15 months in the end, about 6 months after my other 3 children - my point is that I know for a fact the weight won't be helping.

He said she seems mentally intact and her eyes were fine when he looked in them. He said she was a lovely healthy little girl and that we need to give her a lot more time and physio should get her through this - the question is what sort of physio am I meant to be doing? He didn't give me many pointers.

Today I made her a support vest, of sorts, out of tubigrip, but it was too tight so I made another out of a sock. She wasn't happy about it at all. Totally refused to move, whereas this morning, she's been getting herself around quicker than usual. I decided to let her be for now and see how we get on, she's definitely improving, very slowly but surely. I'll put up another video soon and you can maybe see the difference.

I'm finding this is more of an emotional roller coaster than I first I imagined it would be, and I'm constantly questioning whether I'm doing whats best for her. I guess that on some level, I'm still expecting to see massive changes everyday, and when there are none, I get quite down and frustrated. It also seems that everyone has their own opinions on this route I am taking with Winny, and are quite happy to make it abundantly clear if they think I'm doing the wrong thing. I understand some people wouldn't go to any lengths in this situation, and that's fair enough, I can understand their reasons - so why can't some people understand mine? I think she deserves a chance as she is perfect in every other way. The vet told me that she is in no pain, she is absolutely fine - it's not a disease, it's a disability - one which could improve in time.

So now I'm off to hunt around on the Internet for any physio information I can find!

Sorry if hydrotherapy has already been suggested but it might be worth considering.

Funnily enough Claire_41, that is exactly what I am looking at on the web right now. Also I have found a website of chartered physiotherapists for animals so I am going to call a few who cover my area and see if its something they would consider doing, even just once to guide me on what to do. Someone suggested acupuncture also, might be worth looking into.

I've got to try what I can to get this girl using all four legs!

I have been reading about your little girl since this all started and I understand how you feel when each day you seek an improvement that just isn't there.

We can all offer our opinions and share our own stories, but you are the one that looks at your reflection and has to balance the heart and head. (personally I always go with the heart which may get me into trouble sometimes and make me do the daftest of things but this is the way I am made, and we are all made very differently)

I just wanted to take a few minutes to send you and Winny my sincere best wishes.... I have also sent Winny a big sloppy kiss from my gang, i do hope that it reaches her intact......

I had a boy who was very fat and he was about 5 weeks before he could start to get up.  I would hold him under his stomach from 3 weeks and just let him pretend that he was walking and his legs would try and move.  It wasn't until he was homed at 10 weeks (kept him longer) that he was really walking properly.  Now at 4 he is a fit boy and has no problems.  Hope your girl goes the same way.

you could try gently moving her weaker leg out from underneath so it sits similarly to her other leg
hoping she'll be up and running around driving you nuts in a couple weeks

I'd definitely look at the hydrotherapy too, we take our girl swimming and although she only goes for exercise as opposed to rehabilitation, you can see the pressure it takes off their limbs, and may encourage Winny to start using her legs without putting any weight or strain on them.  She is the same breed as Winny :)

Sending big hugs to Winny, she's a special little girl.

Thanks again everyone, yet again I am blown away with all your kind words. Between here and a page I started for her on Facebook (as we have many friends within the dog world) the support I have had has been staggering. I am finding that it is the kind words and support that is keeping me going strong, without them my heart sinks and I question everything. Also, your success stories and little bits of information about your own dogs are of such value to me.

My frustration at the moment is that I don't have many windows of opportunity to work with her. They all still sleep a lot, as babies do, and when they aren't sleeping, they are feeding from Mum or I am offering more 'solid food'. They then maybe have a 15 minute play, and they are zonked again. I almost don't want to take her away from playtime as it is such an important part of their development, and it's nice to see her getting involved now, instead of just laying there. She gets bullied quite badly by the boys becaus obviously they are mobile and they're going to have the edge!

I have been supporting her under her tummy to get her to pretend to walk. She can hold herself up and take steps on her front two legs if I hold the back end, she also moves her one back foot as if walking, it's the other one that is doing its own thing. I really do question the vets opinion about the support on this foot - surely if that foot were somehow kept in the position it was meant to, it would help the situation?

Anyway, we have a loooonnngg way to go, but she's not going anywhere so we have plenty time :)

She is still young enough for you to put water into the bath and help her swim without taking her to hydrotherapy. They won't take any dog that is not innoculated anyway, so you will have to wait for all her injections before taking her, by which time she may be a lot better. They may, however, be able to give you a few pointers on how long to let her swim.

Good point Lindylou, of course, I didn't think about the inoculations. I didn't actually think they would let her swim just yet anyway, being so small, I just need some pointers, like you say. I have phoned somewhere that offer physiotherapy, hydrotherapy and acupuncture, would just like to hear what they have to say really. There is a chance that no one will be interested until she is a bit older.

I'll just keep trying

Fill the kitchen sink with very warm water and suspend her with a sling so all 4 limbs can move wih only the resistance of the water and her body weight will be supported by the sling/water, then move the effected leg through a normal range of movements, push against all her legs with your hand so she pushes back to strenghen her muscles and tendons, with her being smooth coated it won't take long for her to dry afterwards. Do any exercise when she is wide awake and before being fed as a pup with a full tum is going to be sleepy and unco-operative, if she protests about being hungry chances are she will burn off some calories and become more mobile than is normal for her and resisting your exercises/movements will work in her favour.

With so little activity she is going to pile on the weight if she is eating as much as her more active brothers[have they thinned down since becoming mobile]so you need to feed her less solids or leave her just to feed from Mum and see if that reduces her weight till she is mobile.

I wouldn't splint any limbs, the vet says there is only weakness not damage/deformity and splinting causes wasting of muscles that she doesn't need, she should be free to move unrestricted, she has already indicated she didn't like the tubigrip/sock by not moving which is the last thing she needs.

Set up a routine of exercise periods through the day,6 x 10 minute sessions are long enough, when sat in the evening lay her on her back along your thighs and work all her legs and play with her, mine will wave with their front paws or reach to hit my hands, tapping their back legs and they will kick out, you can chat or watch TV but your hands are working on the pup.

I hope you find a physio who can give other suggestions as to what to do with her to strengthen everything and get he moving.

So glad that the vet has assured you she is in no pain and doesn'rt seem to have any joint/bone problems - that must be such a relief for you  :-)

Have younseen this page about a swimmer Lab pup?     I know your pup isn't a swimmer, but this page has a description and pictures of how to use sponges to raise pup up so that the legs get a chance to do their thing properly - anyway, a picture is worth a thousand words :-)

http://labmama.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/swimmer-puppy-syndrome.html?m=1

http://labradornet.com/swimming.html    -   This site looks very informative on what's going on

Hope these help and I can totally understand why you feel the need to keep going with this little pup

Rhodach - regarding the feeding of solids - the boys have slimmed down since moving, one more so than the other. She eats nowhere near the amount they do (solids) - literally about 2 teaspoons worth, if that, 3 times per day. I thought, and this may be wrong, that the milk was the fattening part, and the solids weren't as much, so I was hoping that when she had finally finished feeding from mum altogether, that she would stop gaining as quickly. However, I realise this would only be the case if it was teamed with movement. So I'm in a quandary about this, should she just be feeding solely from Mum still at 4 and a half weeks? Would I not be causing future problems if I don't offer solids at this stage too? They don't feed as much from Mum anymore, maybe 5 times per day now for only 5 minutes max - over the last week her weight gain has slowed down, she has gained 2 or 3 oz since Friday night, where she was gaining around an ounce a day.

Yes, she is much more responsive before a feed - the video I took was before a feed as I knew it would show her maximum movement. We do sit with her on our thighs too. When I mentioned a support, I didn't really mean a hard one, I just meant like a bandage, the sort that we would use for a sprained ankle - wrapped under the foot and around the ankle in a figure of eight, to support that joint. But yes, she didn't like the tubigrip, which is actually a shame as it held her in a brilliant position.

Thank you Dill, I'll look into these :)

Normally we introduce solids because weight gain has slowed down as the milk quality/quantity reduces, as Mum's milk is designed for pups then she won't be getting something high in calories made by man which is why I suggested dropping the solids for now and see if this helps.

The other possibility is she has a metabolic disorder if she is only taking in a small amount but not thinning down, did the vet having said she was over weight not mention how to deal with it?

Any movement assisted or other wise will burn off calories.

No - no advice on that front whatsoever. Certainly, weight gain has slowed down in comparison to what it was. But if she has a metabolic disorder, then the others do too. Even though they appear slimmer, their weight gain is still an ounce a day, she is the only one that has slowed a bit.

I know I keep referring to humans, but as a mum and a doula, it's obviously what I know better. As we know, weight gain with milk is massive, more in babies some than others, and when weaning starts, the weight gains slows slightly, but like you say, it's only when movement starts and milk stops at around a year old that weight gain really slows down - sometimes from 2 or 3lbs a month to 2 or 3lbs in the whole of the second year, but with pups, weaning and movement generally arrive around the same time. I had been told by a number of people who breed that they will slim down once weaning starts and milk feeds stop - this made sense to me. Mum has stopped feeding as often, she's only been in there to feed 4 times today, and the pups seem fine with it too. Also, they have a last feed at midnight and they sleep through until 7am when I wake the up. They have food mid morning, mid afternoon and mid evening or before bed. I put around 2/3 desert spoonfuls on a saucer and they share it, there is always more than half left - they really don't eat much yet at all.

I have just weighed them for the second time today. Boy 1 is 2lbs 11oz, Boy 2 is 2lbs 9oz (although he looks chubbier than the other) and little girl is 2lb 7oz. What makes her look bigger is alot of loose skin. I had been consciously trying to cut back on milk feeds, due to her weight, and hoping that she would then in turn take more solids which would make her daily weight gain less - Mum is still full of milk, there obviously has been a plentiful supply!

Have no experience but have been following your posts & just wanted to wish you both all the best.

Im not sure where you are in the country but my friend Linda runs 'Poppys Pool' Basingstoke Canine Rehabilitation Centre which does hydro and massage and she also works with a veterinary phsyiotherapist I think, as well as being qualified in canine massage herself.

I am sure if you spoke to her (even if you are not near enough to go and see her) she could offer you some insights/help/advice - if you ARE near enough she loves squidging puppies!

I'm not too far away actually. Probably about 45mins by car. I will look into it tomorrow and give her a call. Thank you so much!

Here is a new video of the puppies :) I can see a slight improvement, in strength anyway :)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6wA1fygmhUE

> and hoping that she would then in turn take more solids which would make her daily weight gain less

I have never found this, once on solids the rate of weight gain increases  right up to about 10 weeks in my breed, (40 - 45 pound adults, about 2 pounds a week at this stage) then it slows down somewhat, to about a pound a week to five months and then slows a bit more.

At a year mine would be about 75 - 80% of adult weight.  The growth rate of dogs is very diferent to babies and also varies hugely between breeds. For example in my breed I'd expect a week old pup to be gaining an ounce, and a two week old two a day.

Yes, Brainless, I agree babies are nothing like pups.
My point was that they both have mothers milk (or formula) and, in theory, when that eases off and they become mobile, that's when the weight gain becomes steadier and not as quick as it had been when milk was the only, or main source of nourishment. Obviously that will differ from breed to breed, it differs from human to human too - but we are all mammals and that milk is there to do the same job in every species - put weight on their young. So, if my little girl was feeding a bit less from Mum and having her 3 small solid meals, I would hope that her weight gain would slow down a little bit. If she was still only feeding from mum, she'd need more feeds a day than the 5 milk feeds they are having now as milk isn't as filling and digests quicker. But because the milk is higher in calories, and weight is our issue here, the less feeds she could have, or get by on, would be better than last week - feeding every 2.5/3 hours - 8/9 feeds per day - those 3 or 4 extra feeds will be a lot of extra calories, she won't be getting nearly as many from her small solid meals.

In my breed, they can reach adult weight at around 6-9 months, some sooner, some later - my two have been the weight they have remained by their first season (8 months). These pups have put on an ounce a day since they were born too, but I need that to slow down a tad for her now, so reducing the fattiest part of her diet is the only way I can do it. And her weight gain has slowed down, to around half an ounce per day, so what I have tried is working, for her anyway :)

Hope Linda can help/advice (and puppy squidge) - shes on my list of 'people I would give my dogs to if I couldn't keep them' and its a very short list!

No one should ever leave their vet needing answers. i would have expected them (if they didnt know) to put you in touch with someone that can help with your physio questions. i would ring and ask. they should help and support you. good luck with getting the weight down. btw i agree with Lindilou. a much smaller place like kitchen sink is a good way to intoduce the pup to water. then i would take the pup into the bath held against your chest so she feels supported and will gain confidence.

I do understand what you are saying, tadog, regarding not enough info from the vets.
To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if, when she does get seen by someone else ie Physiotherpist, that they tell me that there is something more wrong with that back leg. I hope they don't, but I won't be shocked if they do. I'm not convinced that, without further testing or seeing a specialist, that the vet can be absolutely sure. But twice now I have been told to "wait and see, it probably will be ok in time, do physio" by two separate vets, and obviously they know better than me, surely? I do press them, I'm probably their worst nightmare, I ask ALOT of questions - but I don't seem to come away with any real answers. To "do physio" without knowing what you are doing, surely that could cause more harm than good?

I will do some phoning around today - to see if I can get any help or advice with this

Thanks again

> in theory, when that eases off and they become mobile, that's when the weight gain becomes steadier and not as quick

but that isn't the case with puppies the rate of growth increases, from start of weaning to when it is complete, they gain faster once weaning starts.

Ok - I see. So would you also suggest not giving her solid meals, or reduced solid meals just now - even though she takes hardly any? I haven't noted any difference with the boys weight gain since they having been moving and eating more solid food than her, roughly an ounce a day still.
So I take it then that if she was eating the same amount as them, her weight gain would be more than theirs, as she doesn't walk? I'm really only concerned that if I hold off weaning completely, that this could cause problems? If it won't then I'm sure she would be happy purely with milk, she's not overly bothered with the other food yet.

I will say though, she must burn off quite an amount of calories even though she doesn't walk. The effort that she puts in to moving around the pen is quite something. She works very hard indeed - just because she's not walking, it certainly doesn't stop her from getting places, albeit slowly.

Pelirroja, just go in and say you want a referral to a specialist at a 'proper' hospital.

theemx - I spoke to Linda today, she was absolutely brilliant. She had told me to see an ACPAT Chartered Veterinary Physiotherapist asap, and gave me the details of someone nearer to me to call. The new person, Nycky, is actually away on holiday until 17th Feb, but her colleague is coming up from Devon tomorrow, for 24 hours only, to see Nycky's clients for her whilst she's away. Out if sheer luck I have phoned at the right time and a lady called Jill (Also with the same qualifications) is coming to the house tomorrow at 4pm to meet myself and Winny and see how she can help us! I'm thrilled, this is exactly what we need - a second opinion and guidance.

Thank you so much for putting me in touch with her, she has gave me some great tips too :)

Need a like button !!! So pleased for you.

Fantastic, can't wait to hear the report - I'm really rooting for this little one!

Thank you!!! I put a link on here (above somewhere) of her moving around now. If you missed it, have a look - she's really coming along!!

Brilliant news, so glad you have found someone to help you with this little girl.

This is the most fantastic news :-)

Just wanted to say we are thinking of you and winnie.

Thank you - much appreciated. Not long now until our visitor arrives!

Ooooooooh, Linda said she had spoken to you and advised, I am glad I could help put you in touch with someone useful as it does sound as if your vets have not been massively helpful!

Can't wait for the update!!

Just caught up with whats been happening and watched your latest video. Winny is definitely showing improvement. She is a chunky little girl and that is probably hindering her a bit. She looks bigger than the boys. Hope your visitor will give you some really good advice on how best to help her.

She's definitely made progress since that first video!

What happened at the visit?

I have just sent a PM

That's good- have been on tenterhooks about this baby- keep checking to see if any news.

Sorry sorry sorry guys! I haven't had a chance to put a post on here yet about the visit! Had visitors Friday, and the weekends are always hectic as all the kids are here - never get a minute!

All is ok, please don't worry, I promise I will fill you all in with a proper post shortly. Off to make homemade soup for lunch now, once I've fed the hungry hoards I will sit down with a cuppa and type :)

Once again, thank you for your ongoing support and i'm truly sorry for the delay! Very frustrating for those following!

Di