My wife and i are waiting for a puppy from a breeder,have been for sometime now as my wife shows as  a hobby and is passionate about it.This particular litter will possibly have the pup she has been waiting for.The mother of the future litter was mated on day 13 and then day 15.Even though the breeder has her own boys this girl went to another breeder to be mated.On day 17 the breeders son accidently let one of the boys in and found the girl in a tie with him.The following day she was not allowing any of the female dogs to mount her as they had been doing,was not doing the usual flirting,the breeder called it flagging and generally seemed past her fertile time.I asked the breeder what would be the chances of the boy from day 17 being the dad,surely the eggs wouldve been well and truly fertilised by then because she finished quite abruptly afterwards,the breeder thinks there is every chance but i cant see how that could be if there were no eggs left to fertilise.i really dont want a pup from one of her own boys,the other sire isnt he one we would like a pup from.Has anyone experienced this and the later mating been successful? Thanks in advance for any replies we get.

Yes she could have taken with both sires in that time scale

It is entirely possible that the second dog will have sired some or all of the pups in the litter. The only way to be sure of paternity in this case would be to DNA test the pups. If the breeder isn't going to do this, personally I would walk away ...

From what gather, if there is ANY chance the litter could be dual-sired, the pups could/should be DNA tested. It's easy to do and the KC will honour the differing parentage with test proof and allow them to be registered accordingly. In some countries where distances are greater and the breed is rare or uncommon, some breeders deliberately do this to extend the gene pool. It's not as unnatural as it sounds - free-ranging feral dogs often have dual-sired litters (as do some other wild species).

If the breeder isn't willing to test, I'd be wondering why.

My wife is calling her tommorrow to have a chat so .i just she can ask about dna testing,that sounds like the perfect solution.If the girl in question finished her fertile time the day after wouldnt all the eggs have already been fertilised? Im not at all experienced with canine reproduction but would be keen to hear from anybody who has experienced this and what the outcome was?

With blood tests you can tell when a bitch ovulates, 48hrs later the eggs are ready to be fertilised[how early in this process the bitch will stand varies so a tie could happen before the eggs are ready and the sperm lie in waiting] but live for several days after that and could be fertilised by other dogs.

Having admitted there may be more than one sire then all adults and pups need to be DNA tested before registering to make them legit.

This isn't an unheard-of situation; accidents can happen in the best of families! Yes, both dogs could be the sire of one or more puppies in the litter (many years ago I myself had a pup that was clearly didn't have the same father as the rest of the litter - they were totally different breeds!) so the simple and responsible answer is for the breeder to use the KC DNA parentage analysis facility to know which dog sired which puppies in the litter. That way everyone knows for sure.

These pups need to have DNA testing done to make sure they registered to the right dog. If they were to register them all as the pups of the first sire without DNA testing they would be in breach of KC rules. It could impact on any future litters any of the pups had and would be fraudulent. Quite appart from your consern the breeder would be being dishonest if she did not do it. Not the kind of breeder you should be looking to get a pup from.
Aileen

If the girl in question finished her fertile time the day after wouldnt all the eggs have already been fertilised?

No! :-)

You're fixating on this point, the breeder has been honest, which is a blessing.

You only have to look at humans who are desperate for children, yes the egg/s are there, yes the sperm is introduced but very regularly they do not find each other or do not take, even though sperm lives for days.

As everyone has said DNA is a must to determine who fathered which pups as it really could be either, the latter sire could have easily found a late egg or one the first sire did not fertilise for many reasons. :-)

The breeder has said she is definately going to dna test the pups and allow the litter to continue due to the fact that its a very special and long awaited litter.

I'd do the same. :-) Not worth abandoning the litter when there is every chance the correct sire did the job, fingers and toes crossed that all or most of the litter is from the sire you all wanted. Hope that you get the pup you want, let us know. :-)

Excellent; there should be no problem then. Hopefully your pup's in there! :-)

A very sensible solution

that's great news, generally the bitch will only stand for the relevant amount of time... unlike humans (and it can still happen with them - more than one pair of twins have different fathers!) fertilisation doesn't happen at the time of mating... sperm waits for the right time for the eggs so usually is after the bitch has stopped standing... so it's very likely both dogs will sire pups in this litter, absolutely no reason not to continue with the litter

I doubt any dishonesty is intended by the breeder in OP's post, if there had been then they would not have admitted to the second dog mating the bitch.

In the USA with Inka, I was asked if I wanted to use two sires to maximise my chance of a litter and also increase available genes, but I opted for just the one, mainly due to the fact I preferred the one I used, but also the previous time I went abroad only one of the other pups went into a home that would breed on, and in fact all the males went to pet homes, so it didn't seem worthwhile.

It seems it is being encouraged and often more practical there where many litters are sired by 'Fresh Express' AI anyway so using AI plus a natural mating in conjunction maximises chances of a litter, and not wasting a season, especially with semen from an older male, and hopefully some pups by both.

im sure it will catch on in afew years over here but ppl are always thinking the worst of breeders as it is so alot will jump on the band waggon and say more rubbish re show/breeders :(......the joys of being british :(!!

I don't chink it is likely to happen much here, as AI is not allowed for resident dogs, and after expensive AI for imported semen no-one is going to want to risk the natural studs semen being more lively and fertilising all the available eggs.

Also from a breeders point of view it would mean a logistical nightmare, how to co-ordinate travel to two studs, pay two stud fees, with the majority of 'pet' puppy buyers caring not one iota which stud sired their pup, so not a lot of point going to the extra expense.

After all how many breeders would want to keep two half sibling pups, as arguably you would want one from each sire.

Statistically also it would only be worth doing in breeds that regularly have large litters of more than 8 pups to be fairly likely to get pups of both sexes by both studs, as the thought might be to minimise the number of large litters a bitch has to rear..

yes i was thinking re large litters but do see your point!!.

When I was visiting the stud for what turned out to be my first litter in 2008 the dual sire was being mentioned then in large/giant breeds meaning the dam could have fewer litters but with the same variation of genes being passed on as if she had given birth double the number of times, you just have to add in the cost of DNA testing 3 adults and all the pups.

> you just have to add in the cost of DNA testing 3 adults and all the pups.

and two stud fees, two lots of travel to perhaps opposite ends of the country on alternate days I imagine.

Certainly it would be better for a bitch in breeds that have 10 plus pups to only have to rear one or two litters to get the genes of four litters.

Unless each stud dog owner also takes a pup by their dog after the bitch owner chooses which pup from which combination to keep, the rest will not help the gene pool anymore than a litter with just one sire.

thought i would add this - sorry if its not allowed
http://www.greyhound-data.com/knowledge.php?b=2&note=272877&order=&x=0
its a greyhound forum from australia where frozen semen is used commonly, talking about implanting a bitch with 2 or 3 straws from different sires.  there is results from one mating and what all the progeny ended up being, aswell as another mating been done with 3 sires

That is the main point we don't use AI in that way in UK, surgical insemination is very much frowned upon and would need to be justified on welfare grounds, and of course we don't use semen from live UK resident dogs.  Importing fresh chilled has time and logistical implications and frozen by non surgical insemination is less successful.

Most show/canine hobby sports breeders are breeding a litter to choose one or maybe two puppies with the rest going to pet homes, whose requiremetns are primarily temperament and health, parentage, as in future genetic imput not a huge factor.

Greyhound industry will be breeding as a crop, and will run on into the training stage as many of a litter as show they can run.

I went abroad and was going to dual mate, sadly the older boy did not perform.
4 out of the litter of 9 have gone to homes where they will possibly continue the line and that would have been 5/6 if the older boy had performed and produced puppies.
I do think there is benefits to this approach and the stud fee can be worked out per puppy to make it not too expensive and viable thing to do. It is of course more costly to test everybody and possibly more costly to pay per puppy and there could be increased risk of infection but I would not say it is much more than stud that mates multiple bitches closely together...

I do think it is rather breed dependent.