We had an accidental mating of our two (giant breed dogs). The dog had been sold to us as infertile but obviously he wasn't! Anyway, after the pups were sold we had the bitch spayed. Problem is, one of the buyers bought two bitch puppies. We have two sisters of another breed that get on fine and so do my parents, so I didn't think there'd be a problem. Dogs were sold without papers as wanted them to go to pet homes and price reflected this. Alarm bells firststarted to ring when the owners texted me wanting copies of parents pedegrees 'because we want to buy a male pup and breed them'. Now they are saying that the two sister are fighting and that as a responsible breeder I should take one back and refund them. I said I would take her back and give them what I sell her for. They are not happy with this. What do others think? I can't afford to pay them before I sell her and don't think I should have to either. Also I want to spay her (so her father doesn't get to her) and deduct that from the sale price once she is fit enough to be sold.

If you want to ensure you get her back you will have to pay otherwise they will sell her and goodness knows wher she will end up.

They are right as a responsible breeder you should take her back but whethe you pay is a matter of discussion unless you had a contrac which clearly  states about if a dog is returned.

I think you will have to look at the bitch and her welfare on the consequences of not paying and her going somewhere or you taking her back and taking the hit.

You should never have really sold two pups anyway as this sort of thing is hat can happen with two puppies growing up together.

Sorry it isn't more positive but you have unfortunately inadvertently made the situation possible.

Sorry about spelling - meant 'pedigree' not 'pedegree'.

It seems that these people are more bothered about money than the puppy. They already breed a toy breed of dogs and have ten of those. I am now wondering if they are starting some kind of puppy farm. I am beginning to wonder if this fighting thing is just a ploy to get their money back and buy a dog to replace her.

I have not given the breeds of dog involved so as not to be easily spotted on google.

In the contract it says that I would try to help with rehoming and if possible, would take the puppy back and refund them once the pup is resold less expenses. I am not a breeder, just a pet owner and had no idea about this kind of thing.

Did you explain the problems of taking litter mates before they bought them? These 2 will be due into season which may be what has caused the upset if things have been fine up till now and may settle down again when the hormones do, neither is anywhere near old enough to spay, if you take one back then getting the sire neutered or medically castrated would be the better option.

What did your contract say re you taking them back if things didn't work out, after this time they can't expect to get the money back till the dog has been rehomed and you won't be able to sell it at the original price and may take a while with it being a giant X breed to find the right home.

I hope you can reach an agreement everyone is happy with.

I really didn't know about problems with litter mates. I have two litter sisters myself and my parents also have two litter sisters. We have had very occasional mild aggression, but they are the best of friends for the vast majority of the time.

I think considering the age of the bitch, the owners are ridiculous to expect a full refund.  If they tried to sell her independently, they wouldn't get as much as they would for a pup so I think this should be reflected in a refund. 
Would you keep her or re-home?  If so, how much would you advertise her for?  I would give them this much.
I don;t think you should de-duct the price of spaying.  That is for your benefit not the old owners/new owners nor the bitch.  It's not fair to expect them to pay.
Also, if you have had a litter, you are a breeder.

I would state this to them and see how it goes but baring in mind, if you want her to come back to you, you might just NEED to pay the full refund.  I would give the the price YOU are willing to refund first.

Having produced a litter of pups you are a breeder whether it was planned or not, if your contract that they have signed does state the money will only be returned when the pup has been rehomed then they need to be reminded of this.

If there are all these intact dogs running around these 2 pups then that can affect their hormones making them confused and have PMT which they then take out on each other.

Did you know about all the small dogs when you sold these 2 much bigger ones to these folk? Letting 2 pups go to the samehome isn't ideal but provided the owners have the time to give individual care,training and attention then it can work but with 10 other dogs plus litters this will not have been possible and may be the cause of the friction between them now.

Lesson learned -never ever sell two pups to the same home, and especially not two of the same sex as it is far too difficult to cope with two and chances are two siblings of the same sex will start fighting sooner or later. Personally I would not refund any money BUT my main aim would be to get the bitch back and make sure she was okay, so if paying was what it took, then I'd do it whether I felt it was right or not. A lot depends on the breed as well. My toy breed would have much the same value at 8 months as it does as a young pup, my large breed would be worth very little, if anything, at 8 months of age, so I would not count on being able to resell an 8 month old.

A giant breed shouldn't really be spayed before 2 years of age so I wouldn't recommend getting it done as early as 8 months, although I can see your dilemma here for sure.

I left a message for them this morning asking them to bring her here as soon as possible but have had no reply. I could never be a breeder. All this stress and worry is just unbearable.

So have you pointed  the contract out to them ? You are a breeder (albeit not planned but you own two dogs who have had a litter of puppies)

As I said you are now in the driving seat to how this ends up unfortunately.

I would just give them the money and get her back and then decide what to do next. If you have even the slightest suspicion they are up to no good then I doubt you want either of the pups with them, let alone one. My sole concern would be for the pup and you will be able to think more clearly when you have her back safely.

> my large breed would be worth very little, if anything, at 8 months of age, so I would not count on being able to resell an 8 month old.
>
>

Ditto my breed, at that age they are simply a rescue/re-home.

I will point it out to them as soon as they get back to me. I think they are trying it on. I said I would put her up for sale at £500 (they paid £600), but I don't expect her to sell very quickly, if at all at that. I would have preferred to find a good knowledgable home for free. I wonder if I can come to some agreement.

It is worth negotiating and point out the contract and say that you don't want to fall out but there must be a middle ground to agree something.

> I could never be a breeder

I'm puzzled!
As someone has already pointed out.  You are a breeder!

A none breeder would have gone for Alizin.

I'm puzzled!

I am as well, it seems this OP has been a member of this forum for 8 years but this is the first time they have asked a question, such a shame they did not ask for help before they embarked on becoming a breeder, it could have saved all this worry and possible disaster unless, of course, we are being wound up. Not usually so suspicious but it is hard to think that someone has read this forum for so long and still gets themselves in to such a pickle.

> it seems this OP has been a member of this forum for 8 years but this is the first time they have asked a question

Older posts don't generally show up (I think it's just the last 6 months?) - they may have posted before...

No, the total number of posts is shown. I just checked my own profile and I know for sure I haven't posted that much in the last 6 months!

Thanks JG I didn't look at the stats page for numbers just the 'posts'.  Weirdly mine go back to July and yours to Sept 2012 - I wonder what that criteria is?

It's merely the last 50 posts. :-) Although I've quietened down I'm obviously still gobbier than others! :-D

(The OP's first post was when her Jack Russell went missing in September 05 :-( )

Sounds like op didn't inted to beed somewhere she mentioned accidental mating. It really was a shame she didn't come on here for advice or the vet. Would have saved a lot of heartache :(

> Sounds like op didn't inted to beed somewhere she mentioned accidental mating.

As she beleived the dog to be infertile why would she worry too much about it? By the time she realised the bitch was actually pregnant it would be likely to be too late to do anything.

It is really no wonder the Poster doesn't come on here for advice more. whilst there have been some people giving the advice asked for the vast majority seem to have picked up on her saying she is not a breeder! and having a go at her for that. Does it really matter about the semantics? It is not relevant to the thread whether she calls herself a breeder or not and jumping on this aspect just makes it more unlikely that she would ask for help in the future for fear of being belittled..

The anti mate injection can be given up to 42 days after mating,it doesn't have to be immediate. The dog who was thought to be sterile is still intact and therefore a risk to his returning daughter due in season for the first time any day soon.

We haven't heard back on any latest developments.

Did not look properly did I, but have to say I thought when I replied this morning I was on a totally different thread although the same does apply here as well.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">> I could never be a breeder<br />I'm puzzled!<br />As someone has already pointed out.  You are a breeder!<br /><br />A none breeder would have gone for Alizin.

<img src="/images/mi_quote.gif" alt="Quote selected text" title="Quote selected text" class="qButton" />

Wish there was a 'like' button.

I think if you don't refund the people what they are asking for, you may find the bitch advertised on the internet as an "unspayed bitch, ready for breeding". Pay up and get her back.

>you may find the bitch advertised on the internet as an "unspayed bitch, ready for breeding". Pay up and get her back.

My thoughts entirely.  I would pay whatever was needed for that reason.

I am not a breeder, just a pet owner and had no idea about this kind of thing.

You allowed a mating to take place, you allowed a litter to be produced. That makes you a breeder. Like it or not. And if you are selling puppies for £600 a piece then, really, that does make you a breeder!!!

There are some of us who are breeders, who would have difficulty reaching that amount of money for a puppy. That's coming from lines of exceptional quality, fully heath tested and with hundred and hundreds of hours put into the rearing of well balanced puppies. Sorry, I can't help not feeling sympathetic towards your plight as a 'non breeder' person. But then, I have a neighbour, charges £700 for her doberman pups ... 9 at a time, only produced to fund her 'new kitchen' ... obviously that doesn't make her a breeder either :-O

Litter mates going to the same home are never a good idea, as others have already stated. Anyone expecting a full refund at 8 months is not being reasonable.

However, as you seem to have charged quite a healthy sum of money for a puppy coming from a 'non breeder' establishment and so presumably without all the costs of health checks and time put into the rearing of the pups, if you want the puppy back and have the knowledge it's safe and secure (that's what all good breeders want ... whether they admit they're a breeder or not) then I'd be writing that cheque now. Course, you could just put yourself into the backyard breeder category ... they don't care less what happens to their pups!

All the above said - sorry, but your comments really do make me quite mad - I do hope that you can secure the future safety of your pup. Also hope this is a lesson learnt.