Hi,

My daughters friend decided to breed her Chihuahua against my rigorous advice. She is a larger type Chi and the studs owner has years of experience in the breed apparently and told her she should have no problems :(

Dd's friend works full time but can work from home and was planning to do so next week until the pups were weaned...I know it's totally irresponsible but the deed has been done and sadly we have big problems ATM so thought someone might be able to give me some advice that I can pass onto her; she lives 4 hours from me so other than texts and phone calls I feel helpless to help her and her baby.

Mum was 7 weeks on Saturday, she'd been scanned at 6 weeks by the stud owner and had 6 'average for dates' size pups in her, all with nice heartbeats. Saturday evening my daughter rang in a panic (she house shares with her friend) and told me that mum was losing a yellow/bright green discharge. I told her to take her temp, which was a little below normal, and that it sounds like the plug was coming away and that she should watch her carefully over the next few hours and visit a vet if it continued. There were no other symptoms, no bad odour or blood and she settled down and slept peacefully. I was hoping that this was just a normal show and that it meant she would go a week early as I had predicted since 6 weeks as she was large with pups. I also told her to be careful of primary inertia as she was so packed.

At 6.00am Sunday when mum woke she was showing more signs of discharge so they took her to an emergency vet who said they thought she had a vaginal infection...her temp was still a little below normal and she hadn't been showing any other signs of infection! They said her cervix was closed, scanned her and said all 6 pups were fine, gave her antibiotics and sent her home. My friends daughter was going to take Monday off work to stay with her but the vet said she would be fine, even telling them she would probably go to full term...can you believe it!!! I didn't know this until last night as would have told her to stay with her obviously...I wish I'd asked but tbh I assumed she would stay off with her :(

Last evening (Monday) my daughter rang me in a panic as they'd come home from work and the poor baby had aborted a puppy (dead, still inside its membrane) and had 'something' sticking out of her vulva. I told them to get a taxi and take her straight to the emergency vet, whilst waiting keep her warm and calm and for my dd to check for signs of anything else she might have lost around the flat...nightmare!

Emergency vet said they could scan 4 pups still with heartbeats and that the 'bag hanging out' would be too dangerous to do anything about until morning when a vet who 'specialises in whelping' came on duty!
They kept her in and asked dd's friend to ring today at 11.00am.

News today is that the membranes have been pushed back in. They said they can see a black object on the scan that they are unsure what it is, but that they can still see 4 pups alive...where is the 6th pup? Mum isn't doing well and they asked permission to put in a drip. They say there is nothing in the birth canal, and she isn't in active labour. They want to keep her in another night.

I've told her this morning to ring the studs owner as she's been breeding Chi's for 30 years, so probably knows more than the vets do. None of the advice they've been given has rung right to me; I asked her what 'Mum isn't doing well' means but she says they didn't give her more information. I feel so helpless and wish I was nearer so I could ask the questions that need to be asked!

This is my worst nightmare for them all, I tried so hard to dissuade her from breeding even informing her that she could lose her baby but she had already spoken to the studs owner and nothing I could say was going to change her mind. I feel for them all but especially for the mum, the thought of her going through this on her own for god only knows how long yesterday is dreadful!!

If anyone has any helpful advice or knowledge of this happening before I'm sure my dd's friend would be most grateful, she loves this little girl with all her heart and obviously wants what is best for her even if it means not getting any puppies at the end.

Section.  NOW!

Believe me.

I take it they won't survive at only 51 days though, and to OP the 6th puppy is probably what they pushed back in, or she may even have eaten it in a panic when she passed the one they found (she obviously made not attempt to clean or mother that one, so her maternal instincts had not kicked in).

If left, I feel they will lose the bitch.

Surely a vet wouldnt leave a bitch like this waiting until tomorrow for another vet.I am shocked an awful situation

Yes that's exactly what I'm thinking, and if she were mine I would do just that! Trouble is she isn't and when vets speak, unless you know how wrong they can be about whelping, you take their advice :o(

I've tried telling dd's friend that I would go in but obviously she's hoping for a pup or two still after what the vet told her...aggghhhh!

I've sort of been co-opted into mentoring her over the last 2-3 weeks, sending her lists of things to buy, talking to her endlessly about what to expect during a whelp and what to look for if it doesn't go to plan, but I've never come across anything like this before and not being able to see her is so frustrating as so much of foreseeing and reacting to problems is gut instinct!! I feel responsible but also at a loss as to what more to do from such a distance away!!

I'll talk to her again, thank you...I'll check in regularly!

> Surely a vet wouldnt leave a bitch like this waiting until tomorrow for another vet

Sadly, I have often disagreed with a vet, feeling that I know more about whelping this breed than they do.  Hey, I've had a vet watch me deliver my own litter in awe, because they had never seen a natural whelping.  They do emergency sections, not natural deliveries.

I am not happy taking breeding advice from a vet who is not a breeder.  I have a speciality breed when it comes to whelping, and a vet would leave a bitch way over time for my liking.

> I've tried telling dd's friend that I would go in but obviously she's hoping for a pup or two still after what the vet told her

Ask her if she wants a pup so badly that she is happy to sacrifice the life of her bitch.

Dreadful isn't it! They're in London and her usual vet surgery doesn't do emergencies so she's at an emergency vets hospital!! £400 plus for a nights care...she's spent almost £1,000 already. Mind you I told her she needed at least £2,000 put aside before she mated her, she said I have a new credit card :o( I think she's going to max that out quickly! I just wish she'd never contacted the stud owner and listened to me, sigh!

what a nightmare bitch needs section asap PUT HER FOOT DOWN she is the owner vets provide a service and it has to be done

At the very least, this thread shows anyone reading it and thinking of having 'just one litter' from their bitch what can happen...

Bright green discharge especially at this stage in a pregnancy is bad new.  I would be wanting to abort the litter now myself so my dog would be safe!  I'm shocked that the vets were wanting to wait until the next day!

At 400£ a night, are you really that shocked?

I'm no expert, particularly not of this breed, but I would agree that a section is called for and quickly, before all pups and mum die. Pups will probably not survive this early, but mum has a good chance of not making it either, under the 'care' of these idiot vets!

The trouble is you are only getting information second hand from your daughter and friend. 
When the vet says the bitch is not doing well, they may well mean she is not presently fit for an anaesthetic, I note they are giving IV fluids.  They may be trying to improve her condition before considering surgery.  With respect to all those urging on to surgery, they do not have this poor bitch in front of them or even her notes.

What a horrendous situation :(

However I think this thread should be permanently at the top of the page in bold red letters so that people who think breeding toy dogs is so easy might have a chance of thinking again.  

I wasn't aware that Chi's had such large litters - 6 is a huge number for such a tiny dog

> I'm no expert, particularly not of this breed, but I would agree that a section is called for and quickly, before all pups and mum die. Pups will probably not survive this early, but mum has a good chance of not making it either, under the 'care' of these idiot vets!

But if the pups have virtually no chance of making it why put mum through an operation? Surely it would be better to let her give birth to the pups naturally even if they are stillborn? and if there is any chance at all of the remaining pups continuing with the pregnancy wouldn't it be better to leave them while they are still alive?

A friend of mine had this happen ion a French bull dog last year. At 7 weeks she had a greenish discharge. The vet said she was aborting the pups but did not wan to do a c section unless mums condition warranted it. All the pups were born dead over a period of 2 days. No c section was needed even though Frenchies are prone to them. Obviously heart breaking for my friend to have all dead puppies but at least mum didn't have to recover from an operation on top of her loss.

But if the pups have virtually no chance of making it why put mum through an operation? Surely it would be better to let her give birth to the pups naturally even if they are stillborn?

1. It is a lot harder for dead pups to be born because they don't help in any way. You can almost always tell if a pup (or kitten) is dead as it takes so much longer and is harder.

2. The risk of infection when the dead pups start to decompose is huge. You may end up with pyometra on top.

> 2. The risk of infection when the dead pups start to decompose is huge. You may end up with pyometra on top.

She can be kept under antibiotic cover. 

I think Newyork has a very good point and this is, in fact, the course of action most likely to be taken with a human even with all the emotional issues that clearly will not apply here.

Oh and 3. The bitch waking up from a GA and c-section is less likely to really stress out looking for her pups, whereas when she has given birth to dead ones she will be heartbroken.

All personal experiences.

Thanks for all your comments!

I've been in regular contact with dd's friend throughout the day, I suggested she ask lots of questions and ask for a second opinion if necessary.
She rang the emergency vet hospital late morning and they told her that mum was not eating, drinking or walking about, she had been given an IV. She asked if she could visit but was told no as their visiting hours are only from 3.00pm to 6.00pm! I told her that she should just turn up and insist on seeing her. However she left it until 3.00 and walked in to be told they needed to talk to her before she saw her baby...after making her wait 30mins before she was spoken to!
She insisted on seeing her straight away and as she walked in mum jumped up and ran over to her, running around like a mad thing! Everyone was in shock, especially the vet and nurse. I assume she missed her mum so much she had just shut down!!

They told her they had scanned her and picked up 4 puppy heartbeats, but that their might be one hiding. They apparently rang a specialist and he suggested some blood tests and told them to leave things alone as aborting a dead pup is fairly common in order to allow mum and the rest of the pups to survive.
They now deny 'pushing anything back in' and told her whatever it was must have come out on its own overnight; they said they hadn't found anything, completely different to what she was told this morning! Her temperature is 36.6°C and, according to the vet, she is still 2cm dilated but she will close back up and probably go to term! They told her that as she was obviously pining so much then taking her home would be the best option.

Mum to be is now back home although she still has a slight discharge, it's milky in colour with no blood tinges. She appears happy, is bouncing around the room and is eating well! She's obviously on twice daily antibiotics, she also appears more comfortable as there is noticeably more room in there for the remaining pups.

My dd's friend will now be working from home, I've suggested she take her temperature twice daily and watch her like a hawk! I said if she feels in her gut that's something's not right then it probably isn't and to get her to a vet.

I'll let you know what happens over the next week or so!

Thank you so much again for your suggestions and for listening! I'm amazed at her recovery, thrilled, but still very concerned! I'm just hoping these pups cling on and even more so that mum gets through this with as little drama as possible from now on!

Oh just to clear one thing up I should have said her early discharge was a yellow/lime green mucous i.e. the plug, not a bright green liquid, I'm sorry I should have made that clear, not thinking straight at the time x

Hi,

Just to bring you up to speed :(

Mum popped out a puppy every few days last week, all premature, with varying degrees of fur growth and who lived for varying amounts of time. The final 2 pups were born Sunday, one died within a couple of hours, the last was a little more viable and had more fur and weighed a decent weight considering he was still over a week early.

I was on the phone to them pretty much all night and the puppy seemed to be suckling but I didn't hold out much hope tbh. They did everything they could but he sadly passed away 18 hours after birth. The vets told them there wasn't any point taking him in as at that stage he wouldn't have survived the stress of being moved, it was pretty much keeping him comfortable, warm and tucked up to Mum. It was all very sad for everyone and not something dd's friend, thankfully, wants to repeat!

Mum had a vet check Monday and was pronounced fit and well. No reason was found as the barrage of blood tests taken a few days earlier showed normal hormone levels for the stage of pregnancy and no infections or problems at all.
Maybe 6 pups were just too many for her to carry or maybe the first one dying in-utero had started the long drawn out labour early. In between each birth (no problems pushing them out and Mum did all the right things once they were born) Mum was back to her normal self, eating, sleeping and playing as if nothing had happened until the next one popped out. Quite bizarre really.

Anyway just thought I'd let you know what happened; I hate reading a thread where the op doesn't follow up on what happened...so frustrating!

Thanks again for your help; I have a girl 44 days pregnant today and keep checking her constantly for signs of a plug incase she does the same thing! I know it's silly but I just can't help myself. She keeps looking at me as if to say 'stop it, what ARE you looking at, go away!' :)

How upsetting for all concerned :(

Hopefully a very painful lesson learned that breeding is not always the fun and joy it is thought to be.

How sad, RIP little onrs

I hope your whelping has a better outcome.

So sorry, but thanks for the update. It may help others to read this thread in the future.

Perhaps this thread should be at the top for a while ?

Thanks for posting the outcome, I always wonder if folk don't come back.  I am so pleased that the bitch is ok. 

That's an appalling story, how sad for the chi to be used like that :(

Poor mum & babies, sorry for the sad outcome but glad your daughter's friend has learned that it's sadly not always fun to have puppies. :-(