HI EVERYONE

JUST HAD THE BELOW E-MAIL OFF A FRIEND CAN SOMEONE GIVE URGENT ADVICE AS THE PERSON WAS SUPPOSED TO BE GOING AWAY TOMORROW.  SHE'S GETTING ALL DIFFERING ADVICE FROM SPAIN AND VETS.  I THOUGHT THAT SHE WOULD BE JUST BE ABLE TO GO TO SPAIN ETC WITH NO PROBLEMS AND OUR PET PASSPORT.

Hi Folks
I was planning to travel with my campervan and weans down through France and Spain thence to Morocco.   This was as part of an organised Campervan tour, where the organisers ' knew everything after 30 years of operation'.
However, when I started investigating I discovered that under EU regulations the dogs needed to be blood tested after their rabies vaccination as before.   This was annoying and worrying since my vet had advised that I do not keep their passports up to date ans the one month rule would suffice.   Next, it was unclear whether the 3 month delay rule applied for re-entry to Spain and if so, whether the date used was vaccination or testing.   It is testing with test date as day zero and does not apply to the UK if dogs tested before departure.
So far, so good.
Being a belt and braces person, I decided that I would not travel until I had a copy of the rules, specific to Spain and entry thereto from a rabies zone.
Well, how long do you have??
I have had verbal advice from various friends in Spain with their vets description of requirements - having been given a bum steer by my own vet, I am not prepared to risk it.   My vet, by the way, showed me his latest advice note on the subject - still cost me an extra £188 for the tests to the dogs and cat.
I currently have a professional translator working on this, first report was standard EU rules -?????   Have just had yet another response from AHVLA giving me the rules for re-entry to the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Given that you guys have been involved in moving animals between countries, does anyone have the current rules relating to Spain?   Or a link to the appropriate web site.   I have phoned, emailed embassies, Min of Ag etc.
Nigel very kindly spoke with a friend in Spain, but again, a verbal response of their vet's thoughts.   By the way there is no consistency between these various vets advice.

I was due to travel tomorrow, so pretty academic now, but I need to resolve this.   £300 deposit down the tubes.
What about the organisers you may ask - they now absolve themselves of all responsibility for everything, and by the way, want paid in cash in a Southern Spain car park and will end the tour in Marakesh - neurotic - who me?
My travel companions are still going with their dogs, the organiser says the authorities never check anything on re-entry to Spain, so they are happy with that.

Hope someone can help

Hi There,

Just read your urgent reply for any advice regarding take your dog to spain.
Basically any dog, cat or ferret can travel from the UK to many listed EU countries (spain is on the list) without the need for quarantine as long as they travel under the Pet Travel Scheme.

From the post it sounds like you have been told a number of different things, Here is a link to a UK goverment website all about travelling pets to Europe and entering in the UK. In my option it is an extremely reliable website  http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/travel/pets/

Hope this helps and good luck!

Laura Evans

No they do not need blood testing if travelling from a listed or EU country, only a 3 week wait from first Rabies vaccination as long as these have stayed current.

but travelling from Morocco back to EU would require the blood test and a 3 month wait from blood test as this is not an EU or other listed country.

Well I think the problem is the Morocco bit - that's not part of the EU, so you are talking about leaving the EU and then re-entering it. 

I would phone the Spanish Embassy in London and ask about the regulations for dogs entering Spain *from outside the EU*.

Posted at same time as brainless....

It might be possible to do the tour as far as the south of Spain, but not continue to MOrocco.  I don't see any problems with the dogs if you didn't go outside the EU with them.

I would not take dogs to Spain unless I had to - Liechmaniasis is rife down there and pretty much every dog is infected - I would not want to put my dogs through it for the sake of a holiday.

Dogs can catch liechmania  in Spain but to say that more or less all dogs have it is an exaggeration and you can medicate to avoid, although I think it unlikely that there would be a problem at this time of the year. Keep the dog in after dark as much as possible and treat with insect repellent when out but even that is probably not required during the winter months.

>Dogs can catch liechmania  in Spain but to say that more or less all dogs have it is an exaggeration

Not really; the chance of a dog catching it are very high - certainly well over 35%, and as long as the temperature is over 20C there's a real risk.

It may have been the area we were in.  It has certainly given me pause for thought about the possibility of moving there permanently and the dogs certainly will not be coming on holidays with us

Scalibor collars are what is used to kill the vector (Sand fly) and when I exported a pup to Spain with a UK ex pat I made sure she knew about them.

As Brainless says, the Scalibor collar is extremely effective. 

Yes, a high percentage of dogs there have it - but most are not treated with any preventative and many are strays or rescue dogs.  Certainly very few dogs will have used a preventative all their life. 

My uncle lives in the south of Spain with his dog.  He was fine whilst using Scalibor collars (for years) but then got slack and forgot one for a year.  His dog did contract leishmaniasis - it lived to be 12yo still, after treatment.  If you are using a Scalibor collar which you change every 5 months, it's very unlikely a dog will get it.

Yes there is the collar but now there is also a vaccination against it and I would not say that practically all Spanish dogs have it although I do know it has been bad this year!

I said "Dogs can catch liechmania  in Spain but to say that more or less all dogs have it is an exaggeration"
You reply "Not really; the chance of a dog catching it are very high - certainly well over 35%,"

A matter of opinion I do not think that "nearly all" equals 35%, or even over 35% - my family live there and they have not had the experience that it is even 35% although if your dog lives outside then it may be. It is also possible for it to be caught by people and I am sure that you will not have met many who have it although you will know plenty who have visited.

As far as someone visiting the south of Spain tomorrow it is well under 20% although it is possible it may rise but that would be considered unusual.

>my family live there and they have not had the experience that it is even 35% although if your dog lives outside then it may be.

My Spanish vet colleague, who also lives in the south of Spain, would disagree with you. :-)

Likely because he sees all the sick dogs? Lol

No, because he doesn't practice there. :-) But his own dog has it and he knows how easily it's transmitted.

>A matter of opinion I do not think that "nearly all" equals 35%, or even over 35%

You misunderstand - the 35% doesn't refer to the proportion of dogs that live (or die) with the disease - it's the chances of catching it, which is a different matter entirely.

You misunderstand - the 35% doesn't refer to the proportion of dogs that live (or die) with the disease - it's the chances of catching it, which is a different matter entirely.

Well I must be wrong, I have no scientific information only the experience of my family their friends and work mates.

Still think to tell someone they are doing something wrong to take their dog with them to Spain tomorrow is over egging it some what.

To the OP I would say tell your friend to ask the vet for the chosen medication and go and enjoy but do not leave Europe or you may have to put your dog into quarantine.

I would not take dogs to Spain unless I had to - Liechmaniasis is rife down there and pretty much every dog is infected - I would not want to put my dogs through it for the sake of a holiday.
I think this is a bit of scare-mongering.  I have just come back to the UK after 6 years in Spain, with my English born dog, and he is fine!  The only dogs who usually get lieshmaniasis are the rescues.  Dogs which have been abandoned, dumped or just left to roam.  I don´t think I ever met a dog with lieshmaniasis unless it had come through a rescue shelter.  Even then my neighbour had 3 rescues and none were affected and, as she and her husband were the "official" vets for one of my area´s biggest dog charities, I think she would have known if they had had a problem.

I think this is a bit of scare-mongering. 

That is what I was trying to say when I laid myself open to being call ignorant, not that I mind that but I would not want false information to be given the the person who really needed to know.

Yes Nova an honeymoonbeam are right.

>You misunderstand - the 35% doesn't refer to the proportion of dogs that live (or die) with the disease - it's the chances of catching it, which is a different matter entirely.

No, it's not the 'chances of catching it', it is the percentage of the total dog population estimated to have it.  Do you know how many strays and rescue dogs there are in Spain??  How many dogs live in rural villages and probably are unvaccinated, let alone wearing Scalibor collars which are changed every 5 months?! 

Yes, 35% of the total dog population have it - but scarcely any owned by educated dog owners who use preventative meds.

See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19469417

"Eighty leishmaniasis free dogs (42 collared and 38 as control dogs) were submitted to a serological detection using ELISA technique for anti-Leishmania antibodies before and after transmission season in 2005 and 2006... Among 38 control dogs, 6 (15.8%) were infected by Leishmania infantum during the study period against zero in the collar group"

A show Boxer in Spain got it and died.
His owners (think they were Spanish) would have been experienced etc

Not sure of the reasons why he contracted it or if he wore scalibor collars etc.
Sad loss to his owners and to others that would have used him at stud had he not passed.

Think you have to weigh up the risks and know of the steps you need to put in place
to prevent infection etc to your own dog if you can. What you will be doing etc.
Then you weigh up again and decide if it's a risk that you are willing to take.

For some they are willing to take the risk and others not.

If studies have found that zero dogs wearing the Scalibor collar have contracted it, I'd think that there is almost no risk if your dog is wearing a Scalibor collar...

My intention was not to scare monger I was simply stating a fact that I would not take my dogs there as from what I have read it is a bigger risk than I would take just for a holiday.  The area that I know and am familiar with is the costa tropical and the dogs that I know there have contracted leichmaniasis.  I know it is an unpleasant disease and would not expose my dog to it without a real need.  Just my opinion, I never claimed to be a vet or have statistics just what I would do based on my own personal knowledge and experience.

I also did not at any point tell anyone what they should or should not be doing.  I mentioned that I would not as I judge it to be a significant risk which I can avoid. 

Leishmaniasis is more or less widespread in Southern Europe, but saying you wouldn't take a dog to Spain because of it is the same that me saying I wouldn't take a dog to the UK because of lungworm.

There are Scalibor collars, Advantix, Pulvex, Seresto, in fact you need to be quite irresponsible for your dogs to catch it.

And regarding Roxyola's comment about all the dogs she knows in Spain having Leishmaniasis, it's probably because a lot of British expats think that walking their dogs is opening the door and letting them wander, or keeping them outside because our weather is so nice.

The dogs being outside a lot is possibly a good reason.  I don't know how wide spread the use of the collars is generally, I had not heard of them and I never saw a dog wearing anything but a normal tagged collar while over there.  So possibly knowing there are collars I might consider it as there is something I can do to lower the risk.  And for the record, if I lived somewhere free of lungworm I would not want to take my dog on holiday somewhere I would be exposing the dog to it.  If I was going to live there I would look into the meds etc that prevent it but for a holiday I personally would prefer not to risk it and would either make alternate arrangements for my dog or find somewhere to go that would not be exposing them to illness

If you use the collar or the spot-on medications, keep them inside from dusk till dawn, use anti-mosquito diffusers around the house in the summer months, and keep the garden free of stagnat waters, the risk is very low to inexistent.

And now, there is a vaccine.

I have known dogs to be born in this country to have it from Spanish parents who showed no outwardly signs!  All dogs coming over here from Spain whether long term stay or short term in my eyes should be tested for leishmanesis.  I sadly have a friend who lost her dog to this awful disease and saw what she went through, although the end problem was not maybe a recorded problem of the disease I feel having the disease did not help.

Sadly my friend has decided not to go on the holiday and of course feels it's much better to lose a lot of money than her dogs and cat ending up in quarantine.

That is a shame but I can imagine the possibility of quarantine in Spain would be much harder and possibly more expensive.  If it is any consolation to your friend, it is a long way in a campervan and it is really very tiring having done it this year I think we would be getting the ferry next time and there were two of us and no dogs/cats to look after!

PDAE, the rules to enter in Spain with animals coming from Morocco are the same as entering the UK with a pet from any other EU country. Pet Passport, Rabies vaccine and serology test.

Chillington, those regs are no longer the case for the UK.  Now you need only have the rabies jab and wait 21 days afterwards - no blood test or serology required to enter the UK from within the EU.  The regs are not the same.

Yes, I forgot it changed in January...

No-one DEFRA, the Spanish or anybody seems to be able to tell the person for certain what the rules are for a dog coming from Morocco into Spain but they seem to think that they cannot come in until 3 months after the blood tests.....

Actually, the regulation is:

(b) when they come from another third country and enter:
(i) one of the Member States listed in section 1 of part B of Annex II:
-- be identified by means of the identification system defined in Article 4, and
-- have undergone:
-- anti-rabies vaccination in accordance with the requirements of Article 5, and
-- a neutralising antibody titration at least equal to 0,5 IU/ml carried out on a sample taken by an authorised veterinarian at least 30 days after vaccination and three months before being moved.
The antibody titration need not be renewed on a pet animal which has been revaccinated at the intervals laid down in Article 5(1).
This three-month period shall not apply to the re-entry of a pet animal whose passport certifies that the titration was carried out, with a positive result, before the animal left the territory of the Community;

This is the link

http://ec.europa.eu/food/animal/liveanimals/pets/reg_998_2003_en.pdf

So basically a dog must have had a rabies titre positive test at least 3 months before entry into an EU country from without the EU (and certain other listed countries), providing Rabies vaccination has been kept up to date.

so if they already had a Pet passport with blood titre test they would be fine, but if they have never got the dog pet passported and titre tested then no.

Only if the titre test is carried out more than thirty days after the rabies vaccine was completed, so if their passport complied with the old rules of a vaccine and blood test but that test was carried out less than thirty days after the vaccine (as is the case for my dogs on the advice of my vet/vaccine manufacturer two years ago) then they need another positive blood test result and the three month wait may apply if the blood test is done outside the EU.  Otherwise you are correct.

Sorry didn't know anyone could titre test in less than a month after vaccination, all mine that have had titre tests for Pets have been over a month after vaccination, or most recently over 120 days (so they would comply with Sweden too).

Mind you they have all lapsed now as i will not boost the Rabies vaccination unless I need to travel, and will in future just revaccinate allowing for the 21 day wait.

I only know because when mine had theirs done the vet recommended that for that vaccine the optimum time to test was 21-28 days after the vaccine, so they were done at 25 days.  If I had known then that we would move temporarily to Turkey I would have waited 6 days to save having to do the test again. But hindsight is always 20-20 vision! :)