Today while out walking my dogs i stopped to talk to a lady walking 2 cocker spaniels.she told me her adult daughter was looking for a puppy and although she adored cockers she reacts to them when visiting so decided to get a cocker x poodle.on her search for a puppy she came across a breeder in lincolnshire,i know i cant name them, she found  a forum and club that they ran and everyone on there seemed to be singing their praises so she decided she would go for a visit as they do what is known as fact finding tours.Then just before she went ahead with it someone at her work informed her that not only does he churn out litter after litter,he once had 10 litters  at the same time,bragging that only him and his wife looked after the pups and that they bred a dog 6 months after pre eclampsia and a c section.Now im not a breeder but i was left gob smacked.She has since spoken to 2 other people with these dogs who remember when that happened.Now i know many people here may not like dogs that are deliberately crossed so i dont want to start a war,i would feel the same no matter what breed these dogs are so dont want an argument about that  but surely this cant be right.my boys were bought purely as family pets i can spoil and love,this has really upset me.i dont know the lady i met on my walk so i wont be able to post the outcome unless i meet her again but i would be interested to hear your views on a breeding practise like this.thanks

The realities of commercial breeding.  Profitability is what matters.

There's a house we often travel past on our way to Newark showground (so it is in Lincolnshire), big posh one with huge iron gates. To the side of one of the gates there is a stone wall and set into it is "Kennelname Cockapoos" in enormous letters. (Can't remember the actual name and wouldn't want to advertise them either.) I wonder.......

Nelly gal just to pick up on the long that she reacts to the cockers I presume you mean allergy reaction ?

If so it is myth that crossing will eliminate this so also emphasise this as so many of the cross breeds are put into rescue because people with allergies reacted just the same as they would have done with a purebred.

Have a look here
http://www.labradoodletrust.com/allergy_info.html

Yes the lady said she wasnt allergic as a child but is now.i dont know this woman,just spent the hour long forest walk with her and yes that could be them because apparently they m ake a living out of it so they must producea  load of puppies to do that,it makes my blood boil! I know they are trying to stop puppy farming but thses people are obviously hiding behind posh kennels,doesnt make them any better.Im daft about dogs and i get very upset hearing about things like this going on.

Just googled it and thats not the breeder the lady was talking about,different name but defonately in lincolnshire.

> I know they are trying to stop puppy farming but thses people are obviously hiding behind posh kennels,

Sadly no, the powers that be do not want to stop puppy farming, perhaps regulate it more so that they becoem posh kennels as in clean.

The only peopel who really want to see an end to puppy breeding purely for profit are ethical responsible breeders.

We are the ones that know that breeding at most 4 litters from an average breed and bitch, kept properly for her lifetime, with full health testing breeding stock to a standard re looks, health and temperament, rear and socialise pups optimally, you will never make money.

Those who make a living from dogs therefore need to 'up' the output, (in the least time), and reduce the 'input', and discard unprofitable equipment (bitches past breeding) and staff, to make a profit and sell to whoever will buy.

If its the breeder im thinking of, they state on their website about their breeding bitches - Most of them we have been re-homed but i wouldnt say rescued, at about a year old from either game keepers or family homes that didnt have enough time or the right facilities for them..but we have :(   Is this the one?

I wish I did find it shocking but it's far too common a story alas. :-( One of my friends on a different subject forum is about to get a cockerpoo, there's no polite way to tell her that a puppy from a proper reputable breeder would be better.

well it seems quite a lot of people know about this breeder and yes i think thats the one.Several members of my dog walking group know of this breeder and during our walk this morning one mentioned that the breeding dogs they have,they claim to rescue then breed them until theyre no longer required,i was getting angrier by the minute because it also seems they have a large fan club too.I have found the website but can see right through the fancy words and posh kennels,still a puppy farm to me and no dog should be rehomed just to be kennled and bred from!

Yes they have a huge fan club, they have been in the paper recently with their fundraising and fundays people think they are great. I agree with Brainless, it does seem now that its only the responsible breeders who want to see and end to this.

There is considerable money to be made from commercial breeding and if you can make everything 'look right' then it will take a very discerning buyer to see past it.

Surprised they were able to implement a careful selection process and find so many bitches that were unsuitable for their existing homes that met the criteria for breeding. Either the selection process is not that careful or they are rehoming an awful lot of bitches (!)

The trouble is, that even if the intentions are good to begin with, before too long greed starts to take hold and it is a slippery slope from there on. Once a hobby turns into a business, priorities inevitably change and 'much loved house pets' become 'breeding stock' and the rot sets in. It isn't wrong to make some money from breeding dogs but when this becomes a main or only source of income then you are going to have to treat your animals differently from someone who is breeding for a leisure pursuit. If making a profit depends on selling a puppy, they are not really going to be too cautious about who is buying the pup. Will they have time to advise a new owner, would they take a 7 year old castrated male back when the owners get divorced? Will they spend enough time with individual dogs to spot a minor problem before it becomes a major one? Someone looking after 20+ adult dogs and four good sized litters is going to be stretched a lot thinner than someone with fewer adults and a single litter - possibly their only litter of the year. I know which breeder I would chose to buy from no matter how slick the operation might appear.

> Once a hobby turns into a business, priorities inevitably change and 'much loved house pets' become 'breeding stock'

This is why I firmly am against the idea that all breeders should be licensed if they own x number of entire bitches, or breed 2 or 3 litters. 

Once it starts costing us/them to have to have to change their homes into a kennels to fulfil 'standardised' licensing conditions (possibly change of use and higher council tax) that will have the effect of encouraging increasing the amount of breeding to cover costs, or worse just too much trouble to breed at all, cheaper and less grief to buy in your next show or working dog.

The amount of paperwork I already have to do, just on the ABS is enough to put you off.  In my own breed few people new to our breed who start to exhibit feel up to breeding with the huge responsibility, cost and time implications.

There is a house I drive past on my way home from work and there is more often than not a sign up for Jack Russell pups. :(

I met the lady at the forest today,ive been wondering about what her daughter decided to do.She is still apparently getting a puppy but most definately not from that breeder.She got details of another breeder from a lady she met,this lady told her the breeder in lincolnshire does not tell the people whose cocker he is rescueing that she will be kenneled for 4 years then rehomed.Surely something could be done about this,thats very decieptful and makes me shudder to think how i would feel if for some awful reason i had to rehome one of my boys,can you imagine thinking your dog is lying in front of the fire being adored by her new family when in actual fact she is a kennel waiting to be mated.I know there is probably nothing that can be done but i cant stop thinking about it.Also would some of the breeders on here tell me how 2 people can raise 10 litters at the same time.I dont breed although my neighbour has had a litter and ive seen how much work goes in to that so im baffled!

> Also would some of the breeders on here tell me how 2 people can raise 10 litters at the same time.

Not very well, minimal care and virtually no socialisation.  After all just to feed pups 4 times a day takes a lot of time x 10!  By 3 weeks puppies are poop machines and need cleaning up after almost constantly.

I have had two litters together on two occasions, once days apart and once 3 1/2 weeks apart.  Especially with the latter I was shattered, it was pretty much constant care with little sleep for 3 1/2 months. The total number of pups was 14 (7 + 7) and 11 (8 + 5), which some of the larger breeds have in one litter!!!