Anyone else noticed a change in fish4dogs food lately?  The kibble looked different (colour and overall size) and smelt different.  My lot weren't quite as keen to eat it and their output has been sloppy on a number of occasions.  I have fed part raw and part fish4dogs for years and have no problems at all usually. My friend rang them as she was having the same problem but they said that the recipe hasn't changed - although looking at the website it seems to have different proportions of fish/potato etc and identifies 'pea flour' as a prime ingredient.  I will have to persevere as have a few sacks left but will maybe have to think about changing if this continues.

I haven't bought any for a while but the website has changed and they have introduced a new range. Like you I don't remember pea flower being an ingredient in their food before. I am sure that they used to specify that the food was something like 60% or 70% fish. they no longer do that and reading the ingredients it would seem that fish is a much smaller percentage now. What a shame as it used to be a good food. I don't think I will get it again.

Just did a search for Fish4dogs and found ingredient lists on other sites that stock it. Presumably not as up to date as the main website.

Petplanet lists the ingrediants for the complete puppy food as
Ingredients: Cod 34%, Potato 21.3%, Herring Meal 26.5%, Salmon Oil 9.6%, Beet Fibre 5.2%, Brewers Yeast 2.0%, Minerals 0.8%, Vitamins 0.6%
and also states that the fish content is 70%

whereas fish4dogs lists them as
Ocean White Fish (27%), Pea Flour (22%), Potato (19%), Fishmeal, Salmon Oil, Beet Pulp, Brewers Yeast, Minerals

It seems that a large proportion of the fish has been replaced by pea flour and they no longer claim cod as a main ingredient, just white fish.

and checking other varieties they have been changed similarly. I don't see how the company can say the formula has not changed. :(

I've now contacted them myself as it was only a friend that spoke to them before. Suppose I will have to start the search for a new food that my lot will eat that is also fish based (my personal preference). Shame as I was a breeder club member too.

i have fed mine on it for a while , but vary between the working and the sardine, i have also noticed poo's are sloopy and smelly too, if you find a good food please let us know , thanks

My friend rang them as she was having the same problem but they said that the recipe hasn't changed

Interesting. I rang them in despair on Friday and they openly admitted they'd changed the recipe/ingredients. Maybe they've realised their customers are brighter than they think and it can't go by unoticed ;-)

Yes. Fish for Dogs have changed, all recipes (although I admit I didn't check the puppy food). I've got a dog who developed a food intolerance (lots :-( ) earlier in the year and has been doing very nicely on tinned Chappie. They've changed labels and lo and behold they've changed ingredients too. They deny it, but it's darned funny I used to have to use a strong knife to get out of the tin and now it slops out with a spoon. Sadly, my girly now has mega runs when fed it :-O

I happened to have some F4D salmon and in desperation tried her with that. Hurrah, success! Lovely poos. Went to order a new bag ... what? No herring? Was 55% salmon now lower (I've been told 49%)? Less potato? PEA FLOUR?!!

Rang them, and yes, all formulas have changed. Funny that, so has the packaging, and oh, by "demand" they've reduced bags from 15kg to 12kg.

Who are all these people asking for smaller bag sizes? (Admittedly the breeder bags have remained at 15kg, for now.)

Oh, and as per Arden Grange and probably most other companies, new packaging, reduced bag sizes DOES involve a price hike :-(

I am writing to F4D, as it really peeves me when they change formulas. I understand the need to replace herring, there's precious little of it left. They tell me pea flour is a better quality carbohydrate than potatoes, that may well be - I am yet to be convinced. Why they have to change packaging from very simple, and I think comparatively cheap, to multi colour (sorry, a collie on the front of the bag looks soooooo wrong) I've no idea. I've yet to receive my free samples of the 'new' salmon ... I have a horrible feeling I may well find as you have and we have a return to mega sloppy, or even tap-like, poos and I shall be off on my never ending, it seems, hunt for a food that she doesn't have an intolerance to some, or all ingredients ... it's been a nightmare journey so far :-(

I was told that some breeder bags are being sent out in the original packaging, but with the new formula inside - I think the lady said the ingredients label would be changed (I should hope so!), but that there were 'some' bags of the original ingredients still available. Sadly that didn't apply to the salmon, nor the working fish.

trialist , have you tried this food , i know its for tummy problems, http://www.nutrixpetfoods.co.uk/acatalog/duck-and-potato-cereal-grain-free-dog-food.html

This one I think is the same as the nutrix but quite a bit cheaper if you get 30kg http://www.workinghprs.com/.  My lot are nice and firm on this and have been loose on other brands :)

Yes, I am cross with Arden Grange too ... !

I am thinking of trying CSJ instead as I have heard good things about it.  Have you tried this for your girl, Trialist? 
Any comments on experience of CSJ welcome and I will let you know how I get on when I start using it for my boys.

Good Luck in your quest - it's so annoying when products change and you have to start all over again!

Blay - CSJ is out for my 'intolerance' girly, but all my dogs have been on it in the past. We used the lamb and rice and I was very happy with it. Changed to that from Burns (dog numbers increase, price of food needs to decrease!), didn't notice any difference at the time. Only changed to AG because I became a stockist - I'm not now as I can buy cheaper off internet than I could get for trade prices!! But I would, and do, recommend CSJ to anyone. If you ring them, Ceri is very good, she'll go through all the options with you and advise which she think might be the best for you to try :-)

I use CSJ Champ for all three of mine and they all love it.  Even my OH's shih tsu eats it when she is at mine and she is as fussy as they come.  None with allergies but my springer had never had a healthy tum until I got her on it and now they all have good firm stools all the time.  They look fantastic on it, shiny coats and good teeth etc.  There is loads to choose from if you had a dog with allergies I would definitely get in touch as Ceri is really knowledgeable.

dogs4life - thanks for the link, never heard of the Nutrix before. One to bear in mind, though they use poultry oil which I think may well rule it out for us. But should the new F4D turn out to be no good I'll get in touch with them for samples. Sorry, I now seem to have hijacked your thread ;-)

lunamoon - I had come across that food previously and actually ruled it out on the basis of the potato - which I thought earlier in the year my girl didn't get on with (Wafcol Salmon & Potato definitely disagreed :-o - why I was surprised she was doing so well on the F4D version!), but on the face of it the ingredients look to be ok, I'll get in touch with them for a more comprehensive breakdown than I can find on their website and it's another for me to bear in mind should new F4D fail us.

Thanks both for these :-D

Roxylola - Quite agree about CSJ, and about Ceri - very knowledgeable. Also agree there are a ton of foods out there to try for dogs with food allergies. Sadly my girl doesn't have allergies ... she's just intolerant ... of most things :-( Over the last year we've been there, done it! Interestingly, with the chappie, she apparently doesn't have an intolerance to wheat/gluten :-D Thanks for the suggestion though.

Just had new bags of white fish working (2nd October) with expiry date 24/10/13, which has ingredients label listing 55% fish and main carbohydrate as Potato, no mention of Pea flour.

Main reason for change is likely to be that Potatoes have had an awful growing year, and therefore are probably expensive as an ingredients, and i believe peas have done well, and are probably cheaper.

Reducing the fish content will also reduce production costs.

my rottie could never keep the weight on him and his coat was awful the rest of mine are raw fed but my rottie could not be raw fed as it did not agree with him. so we changed to csj champ, his weight is fantastic,he has a good coat and looking good, it is not expensive food either and i have people saying he is looking good as well so it is working for my rottie

I haven't heard back from F4D yet but seems to be cut and dried so I have been investigating new foods-Simpsons premium looks like a good option so will send for the sample pack. I did try csj before but my picky boy was only keen on the cpxtra,despite the fact he didn't do brilliantly on it. I have to admit I haven't tried the champ range as I prefer wheat free foods but Ceri was very helpful before so will look again. I am really hoping I don't have a few expensive months ahead of me trialling until I find something everyone eats!!

Clumberjack - Fingers crossed the new formula F4D will work for us :-)

I aIso use the working HPR foods ( yes it is the same food as marketed as nutrix, heights farm etc ) which are manufactured by Golden acres from platinum range. The salmon and potato and duck and potato suit my dogs very well and it suits my pocket.

>> Main reason for change is likely to be that Potatoes have had an awful growing year, and therefore are probably expensive as an ingredients, and i believe peas have done well, and are probably cheaper.

yes but if you look at the ingredients i posted the percentages of potato has only gone down by a small amount, No where near the 20% pea flour. The percentage of fish is what has been drastically lowered. TTherefore they are replacing the fish with pea flour not the potato. I am sure that pea flour is not as digestible for dogs as fish hence why people are experiencing digestive upsets in their dogs.
It seems far  more likely that the replacement is a cost saving exercise to make more money for the company. If the concern was for fish stocks then surely it would make sense to swap to a sustainable source of fish rather than Peas?

That's why Royal Canin swapped their sensitivity control from Blue Whiting (fish)
to duck. This happened a couple of years ago.

Yet is still states 55% fish (though this may be using fresh fish to make it seem a higher percentage) on the labels when you bring up the pics of the food?????

Have they reduced the beat pulp?  I wonder if peas as an ingredient has the same nutrient binding issues as does using Soya, also a legume?

They have been experimenting with different things - have been getting them through the tasting panel - and pea was one of the things if I remember rightly

There was a note in the mousse to say that they are getting their fish from a different source and it may look slighly different

I think there was a note to say that the factory that produced the kibble had changed too

Most of these notes do come in the packages you receive

BUT - interestingly the only meal of it I have fed my 3 week old puppy seemed to give him a wee bit of belly ache whereas the natural instinct didn't

What about Millie's Wolfheart Salmon & Veg?  http://www.millieswolfheart.co.uk/  I haven't tried it yet but I thought it looked quite good from the website.  Has anyone tried it yet?

I got a reply today -

Thank you for your recent email regarding changes to our Finest Complete Foods.  Here is a summary of the nutritional benefits of adding some pea into the recipe and other changes incorporated into the new packaging design;

We now use single species Salmon meal - not only does the use of salmon meal from Norwegian farmed fish provide a more sustainable product it also gives a higher quality fishmeal

The second change is  the addition of some Pea alongside the potato.  The advantage of using pea is it provides a more balanced glycaemic index.  Peas have a low GI score of around 50 - potato has a high GI score at around 70 - 80.  The glycaemic index is a measure of the effects of carbohydrates on blood sugar levels. Carbohydrates that break down quickly during digestion and release glucose rapidly into the bloodstream have a high GI; carbohydrates that break down more slowly, releasing glucose more gradually into the bloodstream, have a low GI.

The main advantage of Low GI carbohydrates is that you keep feeling full for longer as the energy is more slowly released into your body.  However there are a number of other advantages of low GI carbs

Low GI diets help lose and manage weight
Low GI diets increase the body's sensitivity to insulin
Low GI carbs improve diabetes management
Low GI carbs reduce the risk of heart disease
Low GI carbs improve blood cholesterol levels
Low GI carbs prolong physical endurance
High GI carbs are also important in that they refuel the body's store of carbohydrates after exercise.  The ideal is to have a balance of the two which is what we are achieving by the addition of peas.  Other benefits of using some pea in the food are it helps make the kibble more robust, reducing dust.  Pea also provides some protein. This protein is important as it contains a different amino acid profile, which complements the fish.

Other changes include:  renaming Finest Fish - Finest Ocean White Fish.  The reason for this was a logical inconsistency - we had one variant called Salmon and one called just Fish -  but fish is also salmon so the question was - what type of fish we used in Fish - that we have now answered by calling it Ocean White Fish. The reason we use the term Ocean White Fish in both the name and ingredients panels is for a long time now we have been using Ocean White Fish and not just Cod - the reason being overfishing has seriously damaged Cod stocks and the advice is to reduce consumption of Cod.  By declaring White Fish we are able to source from species of fish that are more plentiful - improving our sustainability.  The new design also brings ingredients declarations in line with new EU rules. It is worth noting that the new rules have changed the way we declare Vitamins and Minerals.  In the old format it was sufficient to simply declare "Vitamins and Minerals.  The new rules require us to break this out under a section headed Additives.  This does not mean that we are now using additives that we didn't do so before - it's simply a change in rules regarding the declarations.

Finally,  it is the nutritional integrity, simple composition and excellent quality of our recipes that have always been the underlying platform for our success.  We are confident that this has not changed and the new Finest formulation successfully builds upon the benefits of the original recipe.  For your information, all the staff at Fish4Dogs have dogs that have been fed exclusively  on the new formulation for more than 6 months with no visible changes in health or condition.  Your comments regarding reduced palatability and loose stools are a concern to us and I would  be very grateful if you would monitor your dogs' condition in the coming weeks.  Your feedback regarding any changes would be very welcome and gratefully received.

I hope this information is informative and helpful.  Please don't hesitate to ask if you require any other details.  We are genuinely proud of our new formulation and we are confident that it will enhance the nutritional quality and reputation of the original formulation.

Thank you for selecting our food for your dog and for taking the time to enquire regarding the changes.

Hmmm...have I missed the bit where it explains the drop in percentage of fish? Regardless, I am still not convinced(despite the small price drop) that I want to pay premium prices for a not-so-premium product. 

I love Fish4Dogs - or maybe I should say the dogs do!  Most of their treats are fish skins or star treats and it's my kibble of choice to feed alongside a predominantly raw diet.  I've always been very pleased with the quality of the products as well as their approach to customer service.

Like Arden Grange, another very good food, this is a company that seems to understand the value of good communication and I find that letter very well written and reassuring.

I do hope that those of you who have experienced some changes in your dogs appetite, condition etc take the time to provide the company with detailed feedback.  Good on them for asking for it, and remaining open to advice and suggestion :)

isnt pea flour a plant protein and although has good GI can it also be bad?

my bag came still labelled 55% fish so i rang them and the contents were new formula but old bag and label used?
i asked about the pea flour and the lady did say that it helped keep the protein level up as there is less fish now so
Salmon (27%) is now fresh? salmon not 55% anymore
Pea Flour (22%)  this makes it up by using aplant protein
Potato (23%) and bulk
Gutted!

spent last week looking for a new higher salmon content for my salmon loving GSD and found www.millieswolfheart.co.uk i called them and got a really nice guy who talked me through their food and my needs, he explained all their ingredients even suggested other products so i didnt feel pushed to buy! i got a great free sample couldnt open the bag fast enough remmy went mad a few kibble crunch and gone put a bowl of my fish 4 dogs down and the new one he ate the new one and left F4D
now im a little careful round new products and companies
i rang millies back asked some further questions and ordered 5kg
day 4 now ad although i was worried im thrilled and remmy is happy, firm poo and it smells great too not at all grimsby docks but really nice

so ive used F4D since it started would always stand up for them but this change and bag incorrect details and not informing us of the change lost my trust

its early days but for us im glad i can pick the phone up talk to someone and ask questions i feel re educated and inspired to try more ranges once they come along in 2013 maybe i will try their countryside range on remmy feel very happy had to tell you all

Pat

Good point dogs a babe,I certainly will give feedback.

this might sound strange , but in the last week i have had a strange odour coming off my dogs , and it smells like their food , i know its not anal glands i have checked, but notice it quite alot when they get wet ,

I've been very disappointed by Fish4dogs making these changes without letting us, its customers, know :( After checking its current list of ingredients, I've decided to try Simpsons, they do a fish range and also a lamb range, both with potato OR rice. And it's cheaper too. I'll see how the dogs do on it.

Its Pat again, sorry guys as a normally fish4dogs convert I AM NOW NEVER USING THEM AGAIN!

I have found what pea four is and read reviews all night mainly trying to make myself sure changing to millies was the best for my boy and now I am sure!

http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-ingredient-search.php?ingid=0112

Pea flour

Pea flour is a powder milled from roasted peas. In small amounts, pea flour can be a good dog food ingredient as it is rich in iron and calcium and is also high in fibre.
Pea flour also contains a high proportion of protein and is sometimes used in higher proportions as a protein supplement. Unfortunately, dogs cannot digest plant proteins as well as those found in meats so, as far as we're concerned, they should never take the place of good quality meat ingredients.

wake up and read is now my moto

> Unfortunately, dogs cannot digest plant proteins as well as those found in meats

That is why a food containing 4% meat and animal byproduccts can still appear to be reasonable in protein levels.

UI like to see at least 25% (dry matter)  meat/fish meal in any food I feed.

Which is why knowing proportions of ingredeints is important, nto just where tehy appear on a lsit as ingredient splitting/mixing can help make it appear that the important animal protein is a larger proportion than it is.

Also beware the x percent fresh meat/fish.  That means the weight before it is dry, so a pound of meat turned into meat meal witll be very much lighter.

ridgielover

I tried the Simpsons, but my gang were definitely not as keen as they were on Fish4Dogs.  I'm not sure if I will restock Fish4Dogs once current supplies run out.  At the moment I am mixing it with Applaws, and may well change to that.  I couldn't afford the £50 a bag advertised, but since being able to find good offers, I am having a rethink.

Of course, just because mine weren't impressed with Simpson's doesn't mean your dogs will have problems.

We've recently put our dogs onto Fish4dogs & must say I'm dismayed to find the info on this thread. I've got 5 sacks waiting to be used, around 2 months' worth and although I'm really pleased with how they are on it (just had one dog on it for a few months before changing the others), I find it worrying that they no longer have the % of fish they had before apart from the issue with the usage of pea flour.

So do I put them back onto Arden Grange or try another brand? I had considered Simpsons, had purchased their tester packs (pretty disappointed at the cost of these to be honest!), but decided on the Fish4dogs.

I'm at a bit of a loss to what to do myself now... back to the drawing board I suppose!

No, no, no! Literally just changed my adults to it and they have loved it and been doing great. 2.5 bags left and then back to Taste of the Wild i guess.

Have you tried Applaws dab?  High natural protein.

Anyone tried Barking Heads - that has also come up in conversations as an alternative with a high percentage of fish (45%). 

I have no experience of it but my SIL's 2 Labs have done really well on Barkingheads.

I have used Applaws and found it really good.

Just checked a Fish 4 Dogs bag I bought recently and it is the old recipe. I also use Eukanuba Fish and Potato for one of my dogs who has a sensitive tummy on grains and some meats.

I'm gutted. I have worked through several grain free quality foods for my dogs and ended up with fish4dogs. They loved it and licked the plate clean and looked really good on it as well, so this was their  choice as well.  Why oh why do they have to change a good thing.
Back to the drawing board again but I must admit I am unsure which way to turn to find a good food that suits their tums and coats AND one they like to eat.
I always manage to waste a lot of money buying sample packs that they seem to like but a month down the road they refuse to eat, F4D was the only one that we were all happy with......lots and lots of rude words that I can't write !!!!!

Guys, check out the Millies Wolf Heart thread, it looks like they have a food v similar with high fish content...

I feed Simpsons Salmon grain free which has 45% slamon in it ( made up of deboned & dried salmon ). Really happy with it and at £31 for 15kgs ( breeder club ) I can't grumble at all.  There food is made at the same factory as many as well know ( GA ) Barking Heads are retailing an almost Identical product to this ( fuss pot ) at £71 for 20kgs, they have changed the beet pulp to pea fibre and one other herb/fruit to make the product there own rather than a generic one bagged under there own label.

http://www.simpsonspremium.com/sensitive-dog-food/sensitive-salmon-potato 

Have sent for small bags / samples of Millies salmon and also AG lamb ( I've never tried AG but have seen it mentioned many times on here and seems to be recommended ) here we go down the road of trial and error yet again.
Any advice please from AG users re quality or any potential issues (runny poos etc ) would be welcome

My dogs were really constipated on AG Lamb - no idea why, but it was like pooping bullets.  Happened to them only whilst they were on it.  I tried it again more recently, to see if it was still the same and it was...

I have just spoken to F4D and they tell me that nutritionally the new recipe is better balanced for dog health as they had difficulty keeping the protein level at 26% with the old recipe and by adding the Pea it keeps the protein level even. Is this a load of old codswallop !!!!!

they had difficulty keeping the protein level at 26% with the old recipe and by adding the Pea it keeps the protein level even.

It does sound a load of codswallop (pun not intended) how can swapping part of the salmon for pea make the protein level of the salmon any more stable, it can't so the improvement, if there is one, will only be by the amount the salmon is replaced by the pea, for example if the pea replaces 5% of the salmon then that will mean the ability to hold the protein level steady will be only be by the 5% of the amount of salmon in the original recipe.

I'm really fed up with F4D - we have 12 dogs, and they have all gone off it now (I've been a very good customer of theirs)  The old boy has been in the vets with a torsion - whether as a result of the pea flour or not I can't say for certain of course. but this is the letter I have written to them:

Hello ********

Thank you for your reply.

I must admit that I am absolutely stunned and upset that we were not told of the changes, especially of the inclusion of pea flour.   As I have already told you, our old dog, aged 10.5 years, suffered a torsion two weeks ago.    He had been on the original fish4dogs (not the salmon) for some long time now, and it had suited him well.    We usually soaked it for a short while before we gave it to him, and always fed it elevated.

Recently he became very picky with his fish4dogs.    He was taken in the vets as an emergency torsion on the 3rd Nov.     He seemed to come out of surgery well, and was maintained on chicken and rice, and Naturediet for 6 days, when we soaked a very little fish4dogs to gently incorprate it again.  We though that as fish4dogs was only fish and potato it was the best to get him onto slightly firmer food.    Wham!!!      He was straight on the vets again, as he stopped eating and was trying to be sick.     They Xrayed, and found that although his stomach was in the right place now, there was a considerable quantity of gas in it, and they diagnosed a gastritis.

If I had known that you now included pea flour, it would have been the last thing I would have fed him.    I'm sure you know the result of eating legumes (the baked bean syndrome in humans!!!).       Gas is produced in quantity, and it was the very last thing his stomach needed.

I can get the vets report if you feel it might be useful.

None of our other dogs are eating it willingly now - I am having to mix it up with an appetiser of some sort - it seems such a waste to throw it away, but maybe I should in the circumstances.    We have 10 flatcoats and 2 working cockers.

Also, I would always prefer, and have recently always ordered, ocean fish in preference to farmed salmon, as I feel happier knowing that the fish have not had medication of any kind.   So I am amazed that you have apparently changed everything to salmon.

I am in the process of unwrapping our remaining bags to get the batch number off them, although I tipped the last one into a tub and threw away the bag, so I'm not sure which batch I am using at the moment, but I guess the same as the others.    I will post these numbers to you as soon as I have found them.

Regards

*****

Sorry to hear about all your problems Jo, I am surprised they have sold food with the wrong analysis on the bag would have not thought that was legal, at least a label or stitched in tab should have been added to the old bags.

For those like myself who were loyal to Fish4Dogs and now unhappy with recent changes, bad delivery times, rotten orders. Please check out this company http://www.angellpetco.com/ from the ORIGINAL creators of Fish4Dogs, ingredients very similar to what we liked about fish4dogs, small family run company with next day delivery :-) Please have a look and give a UK company our support now F4D belongs to the Norwegians.

Still lower fish percentage though than the original F4D ... salmon with F4D was 55%, the Angell Petco is 37%, whilst their trout is 21%. Both Angell Petco kibbles have peas. No idea if there's a difference between incorporating peas into a dog food or pea flour. Don't think I've fed a feed with peas or pea flour :-O

f4d did have pea flour but v small amount nothing like the 22%  now. Everyone is struggling with cost of feeds