Just an enquirey really... we have a bitch on day 16 of her season. We idexx tested on Monday results 0.6 and tested friday(day15) 1.4 so very low,...retest tuesday.... How late have you had your bitches tested and mated... she's costing me a fortune haha!!

18 - 22.

LOL I know, my girls have been similar and it's a nightmare.  Sadly one of them still didn't take but have had some take on day 18.

Tueday will be day 19 results on day 20!! LOL!

I've had a bitch conceive on day 28.

Never say never.  :-)

> ... she's costing me a fortune haha!!

Not just that, she may well pass this tendancy on to her daughters so you may well ask yourself if this ranging from the normal is what you require in your lines.

I don't think it's that abnormal.  It was over 20 years ago when our Pomeranian was mated, without us knowing, on day 30 and had a litter!

Carmen is usually later, but for some reason I blood tested her daughter on day 8 and was told I had to have her mated straight away.

It's outside the norm. 
Of course that does not mean a mating canot be successful (if it's not, then dilemma solved :)) or that offspring will definately carry that tendancy forward but, nevertheless, there is that risk.

Her mother was mated on day 10 and had 7 pups.... she has had a previous litter mated on day 15... why should it matter that she is a late ovulator? She is healthy.. with good health test results and fertile...

Another one of my bitches was mated on day 10 4 pups
2nd litter mated on 17 1 pup (stud dog was 12)
and 3rd litter mated on 16 and 17 and 6 pups 
Her daughter from her first litter has been mated on day 6... so really dont see a correlation between days of ovulation and offspring!

As long as they re fertile good mothers and produce quality offspring what difference does it make whether they ovulate early or late, it's only inconvenient for us.

More important that we select for natural mating and mothering, and ability to reproduce unaided, rather than worry they are not conveniently predictable regards timing (seasons or ovulation).

We are extremely lucky they are so fertile, with 80% or more becoming pregnant if mated when receptive.

Animals and people for that matter are not machines, a little Patience and time is all that is needed, and not expecting them to perform on demand.

Its not the convenience aspect that bothers me it the prospect of extended cycles leading to ever more extended cycles and ever more reliance on blood tests etc. 

> We are extremely lucky they are so fertile, with 80% or more becoming pregnant if mated when receptive.

We are for the most part but having owned a breed that has declined into an, inexplicable, state of subfertility, and I know of at least one other, I am prehaps less willing to take that for granted. 

> it the prospect of extended cycles leading to ever more extended cycles

but as far as I know variability in cycles has always existed, this was overcome by the bitch staying at the stud dog, usually for around a week. 

I certainly know that my mentor had bitches mated as late as day 23 - 25 30 or more years ago, and some as early as day 8.  Like with women variance in cycles is normal, it's only the average bitch that ovulates on day 12 and therefore is most fertile on day 14-15.

As with men, perhaps sperm counts and longevity is lower (I assume affected more by environmental factors) and therefore mating on traditional days 10 - 14 (so well before eggs ripe) and whelping day 63 days or so later is less usual. 

MY bitches that are mated later than that (most often days 15 - 18) hardly ever go 63 days and in in fact bitches whelp on average 62 days after ovulation, so mated at optimum time ought to whelp at about day 60.

I have only ever had two bitches progesterone tested, the second only because the dog was not interested up to day 17, this was only his second mating after 3 years so just checking he was right, and blood test showed she was only about to ovulate.

> Like with women variance in cycles is normal

Even given that their cycles are very much shorter I do not seem to find they vary that much actually, not in the early pregnancy clinic I work in now. 
However, in the infertility clinic that I used to assist in the story was very much different.

We've had litters from day 6 and day 28 matings. Looking back at my records my bitches were always fairly regular with their cycles.

This year though my bitches have been out of sync and the youngest 2 are 6 weeks late coming into season. A. couple of other breeders Ive spoken to are experiencing this (different breeds), so is the climate affecting them or what I wonder?

Well i got pregnant at the drop of a hat with both my children, yet had 36 - 42 day cycles. 

After stopping breast feeding when youngest was 14 months I suddenly (and to this day age 48)went to the more usual 28 - 30 day cycles. 

Don't know about fertility, as was either celibate or using non hormonal birth control since (20 years).
I had my children in my mid 20's, the issues with womens fertility nowadays may be more due to putting off starting a family to their less fertile 30's possibly coupled with prolonged hormonal birth control use.

Yes, fertility is affected by many factors but I don't see why that should stop us considering the factors we can control.
I'm sure I have seen woman that have conceived outwith the usual 28/30 day cycle but, never the less, my experience seems to be that most woman do fall within that pattern.

We are having the same problem, I was worried about timings and went too early really, but her second test was 10 days and result was 2.8 so still to early to predict. Having read other posts I am encouraged that she might ovulate later in her cycle?

I'm also wondering if she is going to ovulate at all? Has anyone had a bitch that came in season and not ovulate? It that likely to be the case in future? I can't seem to find much on the subject.

Thanks

Well tested tuesday day 19 and she was 20.4 so we mated her Thursday and Friday we will wait and see if we have a patter of tiny paws x

We did another Idexx test last Friday, 4.9. That was day 11. A friend told me of a homeopath that did a swab test on Monday, day 14 which confirmed she was now ovulating and that we had 4 days (mon-fri, with tue/weds being best). We got her mated both theses days. We are playing the waiting game too!

>Even given that their cycles are very much shorter I do not seem to find they vary that much actually, not in the early pregnancy clinic I work in now. 

However, in the infertility clinic that I used to assist in the story was very much different.

What is important is what's normal to an individual woman - each woman is an average unto herself.  Which may change over the course of her life, but shouldn't be all over the place.  Longer cycles are perfectly normal and not related to infertility.

I am not aware of any particular research I can only talk from my experience of what I noted in these clinics. 
However, back to breeding animals :) I believe we should be looking at the ease with which conception occurs with the least interference and predictability and adherance to the norm must help to facilitate these things. The further we move from these the more complicated it gets and the more interference necessary.  We should select with these matters in mind.

Stooge - are you suggesting we should select to breed only from those such bitches that ovulate at the textbook 11-14 days????

Unless there is a very specific reason to breed from her then, yes, I think we should look for normal patterns of reproductive behaviour in order to maintain them.
People are often critical these days of the old school breeders who keep large numbers of dogs and were more willing to rehome those they did not require but I sometimes feel the danger with small hobby breeders is they are much more tempted to accept things that the old school would not have.

>are you suggesting we should select to breed only from those such bitches that ovulate at the textbook 11-14 days????

I personally believe we shouldn't go out of our way to breed from bitches which are way outside the norm, in that they stand too early or too late for a mating to result in a litter.

My own bitch's last litter was from matings on days 18 and 20 - but she wouldn't stand until day 17, so although she didn't conform to the traditional timings she was being true to her body.

> Longer cycles are perfectly normal and not related to infertility.

definitely I fell for my two as soon as I stopped contraception.  Only had shorter cycles after I stopped breast feeding the second at 14 months, went from 35 - 42 day cycles to 28 - 30 :(

> My own bitch's last litter was from matings on days 18 and 20 - but she wouldn't stand until day 17, so although she didn't conform to the traditional timings she was being true to her body.

Ditto, most of my girls have been mated between days 15 - 22, I have only ever done blood tests on two occasions.

One a dominant mature bitch who had been tried with two novice dogs (the second on the season we tested succeeded), to check that we were timing things right.

The other occasion with a male who had not mated a bitch for a few years and was showing no interest at day 17 (should have trusted the dog), blood taken that day showed she was just ovulating, and she was mated days 18 to 20, her next two litters we mated days 18 - 22, so no issue, she was as regular as clockwork, just a bit later.

To be fair none of mine have been mated for first time later than day 18, which is only 3 days past the usual day 15 that is the earliest I have had a bitch mated and result in pups.  Most will stand for around 5 days given the opportunity.

My other bitches based on mating and whelping dates ovulated at the same stages of their cycles.  So as long as we had access to the stud over a week not a problem.  Fortunately we have bitches that will happily stay away from home, and stud owners who traditionally view boarding the bitch as part of the stud service.  On occasion I have had the stud stay instead where the owners were unable to have the bitch.

The interesting thing was that my girl's previous litter was from a single mating on day 13, when she'd started flagging on day 12.

You do need to be flexible on these things, as does the stud dog owner, and be able to travel or rearrange your schedule at the drop of a hat!

Well i scanned yesterday and we have pups due!!! I used the draminski at home.. ( i find it better than taking them to the vets) although it doesnt confirm numbers it does confirm pregnancy... now please keep everything crossed please!!

Good luck, my girls about to have her pups, soooooo nervous!

are you saying the draminski worked to predict mating time, or you have used it to determine pregnancy????

As the post above says... i used the draminski it doesnt predict numbers it confirms pregnancy... and as also previously stated she was IDEXX tested.

> i used the draminski it doesn't predict numbers it confirms pregnancy.

I had never heard it used for that, only predicting mating time interesting to see if she is indeed pregnant.

How does it confirm pregnancy.  From what I have read in canine reproductive articles it is not particularly accurate for ovulation testing no more than smear testing is only indicative of the progress of the oestrus cycle of the average bitch.  Did the Draminski tally with the blood results, or did you not bother to use it to compare results.

there is a draminski ovulation detector and a pregnancy detector.
The pregnancy detector is like a normal scanner but you dont get a picture it beeps if there are puppies can be used from day 21.
I didnt use the an ovulation detector i used idexx to test ovulation.

Rocoher.. can I ask if you got your Pregnancy Detector from the Draminski site or from ebay? Just wondering about the price as I can't find a price on the manufacturers site. Thanks.

http://www.draminski.com/products/dogs_and_cats shows both a scanner and just a detector, but no prices.

The only supplier I could find was in America

Just wondered as there are some on ebay & was wondering how the prices compared.

The UK distributor is here (http://breeders.vetimagesolutions.co.uk/breeders/dog-breeders).

If you click on the relevant link to each scanner a price comes up.

ours came from the dog papers and was no where near as expensive as the ones that show you an image from vetimagesolutions.co.uk