Hi All,

I'm just curious to find out if there are preference on litter sizes?

Do smaller litters produce different quality pups than larger litters?

Thanks

My favourite dog and bitch in my breed were liternmates from a litter of just two, both have had a profound influence on the lines here producing quality in their offspring.

A larger litter in theory gives you more choice, but quality is always better than quantity.

Most breeders would prefer a litter of one or two of the quality they wanted, oen to keep and one to perhaps start the rigth someone else off in the breed, and not have the worry of homing further pups.

In my breed my idea litter would be 4 bitches and 2 dogs (to maximise my choices).  A bitch for me to keep, or place in a home where it can positively add to the breed in due course, and a good male that may be a useful stud for the breed.

the 1 you want to keep and as many as you have homes for!

Litter size is largely a matter of breed, if you take the breed average most litters will be within 5% either way although of course the actual number that a bitch may have differ depends on the average size for that breed. I can see no reason to expect the size of the litter to have any effect on the pups at 8 weeks.

The quality of the litter is in relation to the quality of the ancestors nothing to do with the size of the litter.

I really wish all bitches would just have 2 -one to keep and one to keep that pup company until you could let it go to the perfect home. It would make life so much easier! :)

As for quality though -wouldn't say so. If you know the lines, what is carried etc, and do a well thought out mating, you should end up with several good quality pups each time. I've had at least 2 gaining stud book numbers and 2 working successfully (either obedience, agility or professionally) per litter -but of course many good quality ones are neither shown nor worked more than just for fun as they are mainly pets.

How about specific sexes? If you wanted to pick a puppy from a litter, and you knew you wanted either a bitch or a dog, how many is ideal to chose from?

In particular, i know the sire and dam information and they are stunning examples of the breed, the sire in particular has a large number of champions in his pedigree.

Not really sure what you are asking if there is one of the sex you want then it is either what you want or it is not and the same applies when there are 6 to choose from you may well like all or none.

Champions in a parent's pedigree is not guarantee of anything it is what the dog being used passes to his offspring and often that is one thing to the bitches and something different to the males.

You can sometimes look back through several generations and find that there are some traits that are almost always passed to some of each litter and others that never appear again.

Number of Champions in pedigrees doesn't necessarily count for a lot, you need to know what faults there are as well. I also wouldn't say it matters how many you have to chose from if you know what you are looking for -or have gone to a good breeder that knows and can help. I had pick of 5 bitches a few weeks ago from another breeder and it took me ten seconds to spot the one I wanted, I didn't even need to consider the others as this one stood out as soon as I saw her. It would have been no different had she been the only one.

Temperament is much the same, if you're looking for something to work for instance. Agility people usually turn up with tuggies and will drop metal bowls on the floor etc to see how the different pups react. But if there is just one pup available it can still be tested the same way. I once had one male pup available and the potential buyer wanted him for agility, so went through all the motions. She was happy with what she found so quite happy to take the pup even though there was no choice. That dog is currently competing in grade 6!

It does annoy me when puppy buyers will not even come to visit if they have no choice of pups -it doesn't have to mean a thing as the last pup could still be excellent.

As I said before you can have a super example where there is no choice but that one, or plenty of choice and nothing outstanding.

Of my three champion bitches the first was out of a litter (my largest to date) of 9 of which 6 were bitches, and she was my pick (though several were promising), though I sold her (wanted to keep a larger age gap between keepers, and planned to keep one from a second litter) hoping the people would show, they didn't and I had her back (thankfully).

Her sire was from the super litter of only two, one won the group at Crufts and the male was top dog in breed one year.

My second champion bitch came from a litter of 2 males and 2 bitches and the other bitch was obviously not as good as the other three pups so no real choice.

My youngest champion bitch was in a litter that had 4 bitches, but she stood out.  In her litter by an overseas stud I got five bitches, yet still managed not to keep the best, the best is being shown but is a bit of a handful for her easy going owner, so hasn't yet fulfilled the promise she shows.

So it really comes down to the quality in the litter, one litters best may not be as good as second or third choice in another, some litters are very even and several are as good as each other and it's a matter or opinion and preference, and other litters there is just nothing really good there no matter how good the pedigree, an experienced breeder one would hope would know if the latter were the case and choose to place all the pups in pet only homes.  Though of course a very successful breeder may well consider some pups as pet only that others would happily show and do reasonably well with, they just are aiming much higher.

So choosing your breeder is more important than choosing a pup.  A successful breeder will not wish to see you in the ring with something less than good, though sadly there are no guarantees, pups are chosen on promise, which many will not fulfil.

> it doesn't have to mean a thing as the last pup could still be excellent.

I was always told to keep the best puppy to last, so if your left with one it's the best.

As I breed each litter to either keep one or in the hopes that at least one pup will go on to make a contribution to the breeds gene pool (we have low registration figures, under 100 a year) and be shown.

So if all my puppy buyers want a companion only I will keep the best pup of each sex to last, (also helps to keep longer to assess pups potential more) in hopes someone who wants to become more seriously involved in the breed comes along, though I hope that happens at the waiting list stage.

Goldmail I completely agree with you.
I was just interested to know what factors make the prefect litter, clearly people are not too concerned about this but the quality of the mating is most important.
I have a choice of 2 boys in the litter I'm interested in, I'm almost certain that I will see my boy instantly and fall in love with him.
I hear a lot of things about size of puppies and how their dominance within the litter will show how they will be with their new family.

xx

> Number of Champions in pedigrees doesn't necessarily count for a lot,

The bitch I own with the pedigree with most champions is far from my best (though she came from a litter where she was not the best, the males were).  I kept her for her bloodlines (couldn't repeat the combination to try for more bitches as I used a stud overseas), hoping to breed something better from her, have kept a bitch pup from her, so time will tell.

> I hear a lot of things about size of puppies and how their dominance within the litter will show how they will be with their new family.
>
>

Also not true, a litter is not the same as family, and how the pup is brought up and it's traits modified makes the most difference, unless the pup is at the extreme opposite ends of temperament (unusual, most breeders aim for wel balanced moderation).

I have usually found the bossiest pups are the smaller ones, the big ones are just lazy :)