I've noticed a kennel with a white rough collie, what does anyone think about bringing them into GB and possibly including them in a breeding programme?

Do you think they will eventually be a colour recognised by the KC and do we need them in our rough collie gene pool?

We've had white Rough Collies in this country for many years.  They are the produced by mating 2 blue merles together, often having health defects so certainly no need to import any.........

White puppies produced by two blue merges are produced by double diluted genes, these puppies are different.

They are white puppies produced by white parents or one parent carrying the white gene. They can be white with sable or blue.

White can carry deafness issues so not something you'd want to introduce into a breed.

Chatsworth is talking about the US style colour headed whites, not double dilutes. There are no health issues with this colour.

It's not for me, I have to say, but lots of people love them.

M.

Where did the colour come from; have there always been whites born but culled?

Chatsworth I don't like them at all I just can't take to them. I dare say eventually the colour may well be recognised here but the longer it isn't the better as far as I am concerned.

My assumption is that they've come about by increasingly breeding for flashy white patterns. 'White factor' is not always obvious, so sometimes they are a surprise.

I would be surprised to see them accepted by the KC here, but perhaps that's naive.

M.

(As an aside - and remembering that this is a different issue - from January 2013 the KC will thankfully no longer register Rough Collie pups born from merle x merle matings.)

M.

That is fantastic, it long needed to be done. :-)

Alas that does now leave the door open for whites to be accepted. Sorry to those who love them - I just don't. :-)

The whites that I saw 30 years ago were all males and had small amounts of blue and tri on them, two on the heads and one on the rump.  They were originally produced from mating merle to merle.  They had no sight or hearing problems and were all much larger and stronger than the normal Roughs.
The tri was used to mate with tris and sables to produce flashier pups although the sables I saw produced were a very muddy colour.  The merle was used to mate to tris, which I was told would produce 100% merle pups in the time when there were very few merles around, unlike today.
The 2 kennels that I saw them in are still breeding today so may well still have more or their ancestors.

Can you imagine the state of the RC ten years on though if the white is accepted, the BYB's and puppy farmers would go mad for the new 'rare' colour and flood the market of course merle x merle would absolutely be underhandedly used and passed as genuine whites with mismarks, with no KC papers (but if cheaper many don't care) no doubt flooding the pet market with health problems who knows what the RC would end up looking like the colours we have today may well become 'rare'.

When you think breeding programmes for centuries have made the RC what it is today and it could all be undone. I have no doubt that white whelps were culled by many, it is how all breeds get their breed standard to start with.

Unfortunately, as anyone can breed dogs today with no understanding of genetics and health issues it could be very dangerous ground. I hope that the KC will look ahead at the potential problems if whites are ever thought of to be accepted, but if they are not from merle x merle and are as healthy as any other colour I don't actually see any reason not to, apart from my own vision of dread. :-) 

I have no doubt that white whelps were culled by many, it is how all breeds get their breed standard to start with.

Having had a close friend who specialised in tris and blues for many years, I've probably seen more blue to blue litters than most.:)  The white pups were culled as they were usually defective and those with any colour on them at all were healthy, even eye tested with the rest of the litter, and were sold with no papers to pet homes.  But those were the days when pet people could be trusted to not mate their bitches.

I think this thread going to get a tad confused LOL. The original poster is not talking about a UK breeder having a double dilute (with associated health problems) - it is a white factored Collie from North American lines, so purely a colour preference which is outside the UK standard. Like this breeder's other North American lines, it is easily avoided by those who don't like it, so live and let live I say. They are not my preference, but there is no denying that they do have some associated health BENEFITS.

M.

I think this thread going to get a tad confused LOL.

Not confusing at all to those who have seen them and their progeny. :)

but there is no denying that they do have some associated health BENEFITS.

I agree it never hurts to widen a gene pool with a healthy stock line no matter what colour, a colour like this at present which has not been grabbed as of yet (here) by the BYB and puppy farmer goes without saying is likely to be at it's healthiest as it is still in the hands of knowledgeable breeders.

Long may that continue.......... as yes the stud dogs may indeed be very useful.

I agree it could widen the gene pool and that's no bad thing but how will they be registered if the KC doesn't recognise the colour?

None recognised colour just means that it can not be shown in this country, it doesn't mean that the pups are not KC registered, the breed Rough Collie is a recognised breed for KC registration regardless of colour. :-) As long as from KC reg parents.

Ah I didn't know they could still be registered.

You learn something new every day!

We all learn by asking. :-)

A white stud or bitch can be mated to a sable for inst and will still produce beautiful show quality pups it will not produce a white so it will make little difference in using them if the white-factored gene is not carried in the other dog.

But, breeding like this should only be done by people who understand their lines. :-)

Could someone post a link to one please, ive looked but havn't got a clue what i'm looking for :)

Is that how they are getting those huge white collars?

Not sure if a problem to post this? It's not mine, just for info:

http://glasgowhillcollies.com/girlspage.htm

'Shameless' is what's being talked about here, although there are others that are very white marked.

M.

Thank you
OOOoooo i quite like it but then i am the owner of 5 white fluffies :p so it was kinda inevitable.
I do however prefer a lad a friend has who is black with white bits he is a beauty and waiting on his 3rd ticket.

Found this one on google too, now it's a beautiful dog stunning in fact no doubt about it, just so strange that colour........... :-)

http://www.borntobe.hu/pics/feher_collie.jpg

I love your breed Boody, white is definitely the colour for them, (well it is what I'm used to :-D) just can't get used to this breed looking like that, although............ I wouldn't say no if one just turned up on my doorstep. :-D But wouldn't go out and buy one, prefer the breed standard colours.

Hehe yes it is but that one does look odd in colour, don't know if its because the picture is so small lol :)

My worry would e the white factored blue Merle on the page from the first link.

What would happen if a Merle was born with just head markings and no body markings to show irt is merle, it mgith them be used with a merle in breeding producign doubel merle pups, simiklar to teh issue with merle in sables where it can't be seen.

One would hope knowledgeable breeders would avoid as with the sables, but sadly a lot of people breed who know nothing, hence the need for the KC ruling against merle to merle being registered.

but sadly a lot of people breed who know nothing

Oh ain't that the truth! :(

And there are Rough breeders who are still mating sables to merles - people who have been around for years and have learned nothing. :( 
And others who are doubling up with white factored dogs, some who know and some who don't.  But because most people only know the names and not the actual dogs on the pedigrees, the breed is a minefield at the moment. :(

All the dogs on the links have colour on their heads, it is the all white heads that cause the hearing and sight problems.

Do any have all white heads? Would such pups be culled at birth?

It's an absolute minefield!

Pet breeders on the whole do not understand colour genetics at all. I can see major cock ups happening as you have shown. I have no doubt that thousands of litters registered every year also have the wrong colour dogs on them. I've met many people over the years who not only tell me they have a breed that they haven't, but a colour that they don't have and some of these go on to breed no doubt also.

And as for vets, the funniest one was a few weeks ago whilst popping in my vets for a wormer, I was stood next to a man quite clearly with a 7 month old Show Cocker. I said "what a lovely Show Cocker you have :-) " his reply........ wait for it was......  "Oh no, he's not a Show Cocker, the breeders don't show, when we take him for a walk he is full of energy and when I told the vet he said he must be a Working Cocker" :eek!: I told the man that all pups are energetic and that he was a Show Cocker, he looked at me like I was mad......... and repeated that the vet said he was a Working Cocker, humph!

It's happening all the time. Between some vets and the un- knowledgeable breeders, we have doggy bedlam going on.

It is why I have such a bee in my bonnet about just anyone being able to breed and it being wrong as so much damage is being done as we know.

Gosh how complex, glad I don't have merles or sable recognised breed.  Although some are being imported in frenchies. With questionable pedigree as merles are not naturally occurring.

You know I do wonder why people choose a breed and then decide they don't like the colours available in that breed and try to change them or deliberately go out to buy a pup of the breed but in an unrecognised colour. If they like white dogs why not buy a breed that comes in white - seems sensible to me but then I never understand what is so important about colour surely there are far more important things to consider when you are buying a puppy.

Haha - love it Nova! 

The dogs in these links are similar to what I saw in this country 30 years ago but with more typical heads of course :) - white with a patch of colour.  They were used by knowledgable breeders for a specific purpose and are probably behind many of our Roughs today and nobody would ever know because they haven't seen them.  They didn't have names like 'White King' or 'Snowy Lord' so wouldn't be obvious by just looking at a pedigree.

Even now there are white factored dogs out there who produce mismarked pups that are not made public, some not registered.  But most breeders just look at the sire when mating their bitch and have no knowledge of the dogs behind. :(

most breeders just look at the sire when mating their bitch and have no knowledge of the dogs behind.

Just don't understand that either, how can you know what you can hope to produce if you have no idea of what is in the sires pedigree, don't mean just the names but the dogs themselves or at least a good deal about them.

Haha - love it Nova! 

Not sure how to take that WestCoast - support or sarcastic - no matter I wrote as I feel. :-)

Total support Nova.  I don't understand it either. :)

Neither do I understand breeders who don't know what's behind their bitches let alone the stud dogs......... :(

If we had them in our lines as long ago as 30 years what happened to them?

Why did we breed the colour out and why don't the KC recognise the colour now?

Whites were never an accepted colour but I saw them at 2 unconnected large kennels who were both very prolific.  As I said, they were kept for specific purposes because sables were very plain and there were very few blues, unlike today.  These were large kennels who knew their business, not pet people breeding.
I have no idea whether these breeders still have any in their kennels today - both are certainly still breeding but not in the ring themselves much these days - we're all getting older!
The American whites had to come from basic coloured stock originally.  They have just bred to maintain the white colour whereas here the colour has been used for its purpose and then progeny bred on to the breed standard.
And there are certainly white factored pups being produced today but many breeders don't know the signs in a new born pup, but the oldies do! :)

I agree to an extent until you look back to see just WHY certain colour were written into standards way back in the beginning of a breed.
For example....back in Germany two very successful Boxer kennel owners were rather hostile to one another and when the standard was written...only ONE of them was included in the writing of that standard. The rivals kennel specialised in BLACK boxers so it was written that Black was unacceptable. :-)

Back in 2004  got my first BRS and was very amused to see the colours that breeders had entered their mini long dachsies as, gold,grey and fawn were 3 that stuck in my head, none of which were recognised colours but instead of having a limited number of options like we do now they had to write the colour down and anything seemed to go, these litters didn't have affix so I presume they were less knowledgeable of the breed and its colours/patterns.

Oh yes, even in my own breed that should be Grey of various shades are allowed to register as Grey, Black Grey and Wolf Grey but I have read some very creative descriptions of grey, then again we get some judges who have a very set idea as to what any shade of grey means favouring those who are nearly white to those who are almost black so perhaps the standard should read your favourite shade of grey. :-)

What about 50 shades of grey.?!!!!!!!
Sorry couldn't resist......

Would think there are at least 50 if you think about it and that judges will have a personal preference, I get a bit peeved when not only do they always place dogs of a particular shade of grey but criticise some who do not happen to be of their favoured shade, colour needs to be grey yes, but the shade is a minor factor in assessing a dog.