For the third summer Oban STINKS from a small spot on his back.  It's a sour smell.  Vet says it is the supracaudal gland acting up and the problem would go away if he was neutered.  I am having issues with that.  First, everything I can find says this gland is on the tail not the back.  Second, my readings show the gland can get infected in female dogs and altered dogs as well as in intact males.  Third most problems at this gland seem to include an oil or waxy exudate but Oban's coat tends to be dryish.  Fourth, problems with this gland seem not to be seasonal but Oban is only stinky, poor boy, when it is hot and humid.

Any comments?

Can only suggest it may be a fungal infection that increases in warm damp conditions, is there any sign of scurf or flakes of skin or anything else there could be infection or blocking of some of the sebaceous glands. There are shampoos that help with skin problems but if you feel the only problem is smell then I would buy one of the sweet smelling grooming sprays to use when the problem appears or perhaps try bathing more often if the problem only bothers you and not the dog.

EDIT: and to answer your question, I always understood it to be on the tail as well and that it is a sort of left over from when our dogs were wild, it is more apparent in the cat I believe but is almost defunct in the dog. Also believe it to be the same sort of structure as the sebaceous glands which do occur, of course, all over the body.

I agree with you that the caudal gland is on the tail, about a third of the way down the top surface, not on the back (and bitches, both entire and neutered, can develop the oily patch from it just as much as entire or neutered dogs).

It sounds as if Oban might have an area which develops eczema in certain conditions and perhaps gets slightly infected. What is the skin like in this area? A medicated wash might help. Can you get Hibiscrub in Canada? It's a thick pink liquid used diluted in hospitals to cleanse skin thoroughly, and can be extremely effective in clearing up some skin conditions.

The surface of the dogs' tails have supracaudal scent glands (also called Violet Gland), which helps in
intra-species signaling and scent marking - Olfactory signaling. The supracaudal glands or the Violet
glands, in dogs, are found above the 9th caudal vertebra and secretes protein and lipids (molecules
includes fats and oils, waxes, phospholipids, steroids). This means when you amputate the tail you are
removing part of or all of this vital gland too. The greeting pattern in dogs usually differs from breed
to breed, due to the presence or absence of supracaudal scent glands. Since the supracaudal gland
supports the olfactory signaling, the absence of the gland causes lack of ear movement , and reduces
tail wagging. This, in turn, causes a change in communicative behavior

May be that is why elkhound bat others on the head in greeting, poor deprived dogs.

Thanks to all.  You all have the same information I do.  I've tried about 5 different shampoos, mostly for the itch, none worked for the itch and only camouflaged the smell for around a day.  The shampoo my breeder used for seborrea (sp?) which is a tar based, anti-fungal shampoo, made him dramatically itchier.  That was this spring and the smell had not started yet.

The past two summers Oban was itchy and smelly.  We think seasonal allergies as it is a summer, hot weather problem only.  An over the counter antihistamine (REactine) coupled with Vanactyl P (predinsone + more antihistamine) worked wonders on both itch and smell.  Long term the prednisone is not good, it looks like this is going to happen every summer, so we are dosing with Atopica.  The itch is under control but the smell is back.

I should be able to find Hibiscrub, or whatever it's called here, but I can't.  I can't find another one suggested on another forum either, Chlorhexiderm Shampoo.  What did help was to wipe him down with a 50/50 mixture of anti-microbial mouthwash/water and scrub it into his coat at his back.  We had a Rally trial last weekend and I was afraid the judge would get stinky hands on the stand for exam.  Not to mention, this smell can clear a room.

When this smell gets bad I think it does bother Oban.  He doesn't itch there or pay any attention to the spot but his bedding reeks, my car reeks, anything he lies on reeks.  Whereever he goes, the smell floats in the air.  I don't believe he likes to smell like this.

But, the supracaudal IS on the tail and NOT on the back.  That's what I thought and when I queried my Vet he said he would show me pictures of where it is.  He was very busy so I said I'd google it on the internet and that's when I found I could not confirm what he said.  However I could not specifically confirm he was wrong either.  Some websites say it is above the 9th caudal vertebrae, as someone quoted above, but the caudal vertebrae start just past the pelvis.  And some sites say the location varies from which I take it to mean "above the 9th" might possibly mean not below but anywhere above.  ARRGGGHHHHH.

Well I would trust my vet over google anyday, why not go back and ask for more clarification? I'm not a vet so I don't know that even if the gland is on the tail it couldn't cause problems elsewhere?

Image of the position of the gland. (See the oily patch?)

Yes, the position I can find and the same location as my neighbour's GR with stud tail.

http://walkingollie.wordpress.com/2008/09/25/i-worry-about-him/

See where the lumbar and caudal vertebrae meet?  That's where Oban's smelly patch is.  It's, oh, maybe about 6 inches the length of his spine and  4" wide in an oval shape.  Bury my nose there at risk of severe respiratory distress to myself, not to mention the gag reflex in my stomach.  :(  Move away a bit, smells like a normal dog.

But you see my problem, according to that diagram that IS where the caudal vertebrae start.

Try an antihistamine tablet like Piriton original if you think it is seasonal, once owned a GSD that was affected by daffodil pollen and would get hot spots and patches of wet eczema every year took us ages to find out the cause but Piriton sorted it and you only need give them when the problem is there.

Not sure I would trust a vet that said the cause was a gland that was situated no where near the problem.

If we have a gap I'll ask at work this afternoon. :-)

If we have a gap I'll ask at work this afternoon. 

Thanks Jeangenie, that would be great.  We had a Rally trial last Saturday.  Not one of the usual Vet. or Vet. Tech. competitors showed up.  Summer holidays I guess.  I asked other people and nobody had heard of this gland, let alone knew where it is.

Oh, sorry, didn't answer the oily question, I think.  No, if anything Oban's coat is a bit on the dry side, even with EFA supplements.  There is no sign of irritation, inflamation, nothing at the spot where he smells.  It does not appear to bother him in the least, is not itchy.

EFA:  Essential Fatty Acids.  Omegas 3-6-9.  Actually, this one:  http://www.jamiesonvitamins.com/4624

interesting, that is the gland that often the hair over it falls out esp in male dogs.

The vet says that without emanining him it's difficult to know what it is, but the description doesn't fit anything obvious; dry and non-itchy isn't a typical hotspot, but stinky and smelly isn't a typical skin irritation. If it's triggered by the weather it could be an allergic reation to something in the environment that flares under those conditions.

It could also be that those weather conditions cause Oban generalised stress, and the smell (although why just from that particular area is a mystery so far) is a manifestation of this.

Thanks for asking your Vet Jeangenie.  I'm not surprised he was reluctant to diagnose without an exam.  What I was really hoping for though, was knowledge on the location of the supracaudal gland, can it be up on the back?

Oh yes, weather is definitely a factor.  We are having a terrible heat wave with high humidity.  He's lying on my feet right now and I can barely stand it.

I did discover that hibiscrub is hibisclens and the active ingredient is chlorhexidrine.  Same as the Chlorhexiderm shampoo that was recommended, and I can't find either, I can't even find a place with either on their order list.  I did find hibiclens ointment at a horse place nearby but can't see ointment working on this hairy spot.

As I said, there is no sign of irritation or inflamation or itch at the smelly spot.  But I'm afraid it's just a matter of time.

>What I was really hoping for though, was knowledge on the location of the supracaudal gland, can it be up on the back?

I've just asked two separate vets, trained in different countries, and neither of them know of a gland on a dog's back. :-)

I've just asked two separate vets, trained in different countries, and neither of them know of a gland on a dog's back. 

Aha.  See, that's what I thought.  This is very disappointing.  I get along with this Vet but this is not the first instance of something funny going on.  My friend, who got me to change to this clinic after massive changes at my old one, is looking to leave.  The principle Vet that she was happy with went and had himself two heart attacks and was forced to retire.  Another friend has left after a missed diagnosis on a broken tooth.  A gal in our Rally classes that I asked for a recommendation on a Vet was reluctant to reveal the name of her Vet because she was not happy and was looking for a new one.  Yup, unhappy with this same Vet.  And it seems every time I go they have a new Vet in the clinic, where the heck do all the previous new ones keep going to?

And it is very hard to find a new Vet.  One clinic has received very good reviews and one of the above and another friend have switched to her.  Darn her for marrying someone in another town.  She has this completely unreasonable wish to live with her new husband and has opened a new clinic in his town.  She is only at her first clinic near me a measely one day a week.  Some of her once very happy clients are now not at all happy.

Darn.  You know, I really wanted him to be right.  I want to have faith in him.  Darn.

Going slightly OT - ooh, another rally competitor! Which rally do you do, I might know you! I mostly do TD and PDRO rally as APDT rally is too far out west for me. :-)

LOL, LucyDogs, we're in Canada.  We do CARO and CKC, have both novice titles, need one more leg in each for advanced titles.  I should give a google to see how ours and yours might be similar, for curiosity.

Duh, I should have looked at your flag! The PDRO rally (Pet Dog Rally Obedience) is quite similar to Canadian rally apparently, while the TD (Talking Dogs) rally is more US based, as I understand it. My girls both have their L1 championships and the older one has her L2 halfway Title. :-D

I am just being curious here... but what does this terrible smell, smell like?  Can you compare it to something we might have smelt elsewhere?  Is it like poo smell, or really strong dog-smell, or a rotting smell?  Or something else?

I am just being curious here... but what does this terrible smell, smell like?  Can you compare it to something we might have smelt elsewhere?  Is it like poo smell, or really strong dog-smell, or a rotting smell?  Or something else?

Closest I can come is it smells like sour milk.  How milk used to smell when it soured years ago before we started putting all kinds of additives and preservatives in it.  Sour is the word I've been using.

It does not NOT smell like a yeast infection, Vet agrees.  Does NOT smell like anal glands.  Not any of the stinky things he rolls in which inludes a particularly vile couple of puddles of oozy black muck, not like dirty dog or wet dog (wet dog smells almost exactly like bracken fern, if you ask me) not like rotting vegetable or rotting meat.  Not like horse poop though if he would only roll in some of that I would find it a pleasant cover-up.

He was very bad smelling on Tuesday, our hottest day so far this year.  Radio was saying it was 32 with a humidex of 42, which is about 106F.  Last night it finally cooled down a bit and he is not so bad this morning.  I cannot find the antimicrobial shampoos recommended to me but rubbing the antimicrobial mouthwash into his coat at the spot seems to actually help as well as camouflage. 

Watch out that the mouthwash doesn't contain Xylitol - probably not enough to really hurt him, but might make him ill.

Watch out that the mouthwash doesn't contain Xylitol - probably not enough to really hurt him, but might make him ill.

YES.  Never hurts to repeat the warning about xylitol.  Thank you.  It doesn't have that ingredient.  It is being used topically to boot and Oban doesn't bite or lick at this weird spot.  That's part of the conundrum, he is itchy from seasonal allergies but not itchy along his back.

Update:  I was at the Vet's this morning to pick up more Atopica.  I had called ahead to ask could I please see that picture after all.  No picture but the grumpy clinic cat modelled, reluctantly.  It's down on the tail.  A good couple of inches down in a dog the size of a Lab.  Vet says oils and exudate cause hair loss at this point, called (erroneously) stud tail.   He says these oils (somehow, mysteriously) migrate upwind, so to speak, towards the back, not appearing oily or greasy at all, till they reach the spot on the back, where there is still no sign of oily or greasy coat in my dog.  And there, after having been excreted from down on the tail and moved or been pushed by grooming or licking (and Oban doesn't lick) up to the back, they start to smell.

It beggars belief, it really does. 

:-(  Basically he hasn't a clue.

Wow, sounds like a really mystical process.  Perhaps if you placed some magic stones around your dog at certain points, you could cause the oils to re-migrate back where they came from?

Well he has now your vet has proved he knows where the Supracaudal gland is - wonder where his head is, buried in the sand, up in the clouds or perhaps some where dark and personal.

Yeah, maybe I can buy a baby sized Qray braclet and put it around his tail just above the gland to prevent this so called movement of the oils.  OH gee, maybe one below too, in case they change direction and go down.  OH, oh, then I'll take Oban back to the Vet and when he wags his tail the braclet will go WHACK, WHACK against the Vet's leg.

I've had two other concerning things with this Vet.  One could have been extremely dangerous for one of the cats.

Tsk.