Sorry if there is already a thread but I can not see one

I read this morning than Lennox is/was to be PTS at 7am today, very sad

Like most I don't know the full ins & outs but from what I have read he was a normal nice dog and it shocks me that he'll be PTS for how he looks.
I read in either dogworld or ourdogs the other week about a man who's rott's got out from his property, they attacked & killed a small dog whilst it was being walked. These dogs were given a second chance but have to be securley locked behind various steel security gates at the owners property.
Crazy that dogs who have killed can live yet one who has done nothing is to die, where is the logic in that?

The law unfortunately is what is the cause of this and until that changes then this dirt of thing will happen.

There needs to be something to have legislation for dangerous dogs but what I wouldnt even know what is needed.

Very sad.

Lots of rumours about saying it's a cover up and he's already long dead, hence the council refusing the owners to see him one last time.

A dog killing another dog doesn't come under the DDA.

It wouldn't shock me if it was a cover up to be frank. The case has been handled appallingly so it really wouldn't come as a surprise if this was, too.

I don't know how council kennels are generally run, however I imagine they must have some sort of log of when dogs are put to sleep? I'd love to get a hold of that document.

As much as I am against BSL and really do not agree with the desicions made on Lennox and other dogs like him, that poor dog has been in kennles for over 2 years, so to be PTS now is a release for him that should have happened a long time ago.

A dog used to living as part of a family, then one day being chucked in a kennel is not fair atall. Poor boy shouldn't have had to suffer for over 2 years, I'm glad he's at peace now.

Disgusting that this has dragged on so long and horrifying that there is actually a law that orders distruction of an animal if it looks a certain way - regardless of it's behaviour :(

Lennox wasn't held in normal council kennels and, judging by the frankly incompetent and inept way the whole thing has been handled by BCC, I would doubt that correct operating procedures would have been adhered to in Lennox's case.

I agree with Mastifflover in that it has been cruel to keep poor Lennox segregated from society (human and canine) for so long.  Who knows the psychological toll that will have taken on him. 

I can't understand at all why BCC have gone all out to end this dog's life.  Why this particular dog and not one of the hundreds (thousands?) of other pit-bull types that are wandering the streets of Belfast?  I saw a cracking example yesterday being walked along a main road...beautiful dog, well behaved and unmistakably pit-bull type (looked 100% pit-bull to me). 

What have they achieved by ending Lennox's life?  Except huge legal bills all round.  I doubt it's going to have any effect at all on the number of pit-bulls and their types being bred in the city. 

A lady who lives over the road from me had a litter of accidental puppies. Somehow the council got wind and were adament that the mother was 25% pitbull, so they took her and the puppies away at six weeks old. Months later it went to court and she was found not to be a pitbull but was speyed and told to be onlead and muzzled in public. She is one of the best natured dog I've ever had the pleasure to meet. However because of her speying her slightly mervous nature has turned into nervous aggression. She's never bitten but gives warnings much sooner than usual and has no patience for the male dog who used to be her best friend. The puppies thankfully were allowed to be rehomed but the owners have pups that spent their first few months in kennels :(

It was handled attrociously and I don't think proper protocol was followed.

Latest rumour is he has NOT been PTS after all, something happened at last moment. Will see what I can find out, too many rumours to know what to believe.

BCC says he HAS been PTS. http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/news/news.asp?id=3109

May he run free at the bridge

The whole thing has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth :( poor dog and poor family - they tried right to the end didn't they but I think there was only one outcome :(

Crazy that dogs who have killed can live yet one who has done nothing is to die, where is the logic in that?

I never heard of this, just read the last news report.

Fact is what you seem to be looking for or want to happen is that every illegal thing gets exactly the same penalty no matter where you are in UK.
Thats just wishfull thinking, if a convicted burgler in London gets XX penalty & a burgler in Newcastle gets XYZ penalty no one shouts the odds because the penalties of ANY law are unevenly applied no matter what the crime.

The vast, overwhelming majority in UK & probably Japan as well accept that is the way things are, this is no different, it was an illegal dog and a penalty applied.

Whats conspiciously absent from your post is condemnation of breeding illegal dogs, people know what they are doing & its those people who are the real killers, not the enforcers.

By analogy, if start I making replica guns in guns which will shoot an irrational approach on my part would be to say I never pulled the trigger.

I think its time people accepted there are laws and there are penalties, some, a minoprity, seem to be saying 'I dont like this & that law we should be able to break it without penalty'.

> Whats conspiciously absent from your post is condemnation of breeding illegal dog

Yes, if people are breeding pitbulls or any other banned BREED then, yes they are deliberately breaking the law. This was a mixed breed dog and by sheer accident of birth can be classed as an illegal TYPE. You can breed perfectly LEGAL breeds together that result in a litter of dogs that could be classed as of type.
The crossing of a mastiff & staffy, or staffy x lab, or amstaff x lab etc. etc.. may well result in dogs of 'illegal type', basically if you have a cross-bred dog or even a pure-bred dog that you can not prove is legal but looks of 'type' you are stuffed!

Illegal dogs are, the pitbull,  tossa, dogo argentino
"And any dog who in the opinion of the Secretary of State was bred for fighting, or has the appearance of a dog bred for fighting"

Crikey, you can even have a pure-bred staffy that is not very true to it's own breed standard that meets the criteria of being of illegal 'type'.

ETA< the fila is illegal too.

They had so many options to allow him to live, like sending him to the US... I doubt the owners were allowed to say goodbye either? Disgusting behaviour when they could of male a difference....RIP Lennox xx

> I doubt the owners were allowed to say goodbye either?

apparently they were denied being able to say goodbye to him, but were (apparently) told they would be sent some of his ashes in the post!

They had so many options to allow him to live, like sending him to the US... I doubt the owners were allowed to say goodbye either? Disgusting behaviour when they could of male a difference....RIP Lennox xx

Some omissions,

1. had a US state formally written to courts to say the dog had been granted formal residence there?

2. Who had volunteered to pay for it all, including its boarding fees & handling charges until it left?

>1. had a US state formally written to courts to say the dog had been granted formal residence there?

No need - he wasn't an illegal breed there. Equally he wasn't an illegal breed in Eire. You don't need written permission to import dogs into the US.

apparently they were denied being able to say goodbye to him,

If they got themselves a legal dog in the first place (like rescues are supposed to be brimming with them, so buy an illegal dog instead) there would have been no goodbys.

No need - he wasn't an illegal breed there.

They are in some places.

You don't need written permission to import dogs into the US.

Is that if it is being imported by someone or do you mean if a country does not want the animal the country can just pay to get it to US & let it run free at airport?

Equally he wasn't an illegal breed in Eire. You don't need written permission to import dogs into the US.

So did anyone from Eire want to come & collect it?

What grates a bit for me, is the way Victoria Stillwell has leapt onto the bandwagon.  I mean, there are gadzillions of dogs PTS every day all over the world, yet she picked this one (high profile) individual to champion and fight for.  Why, if not for the press and media exposure it would bring her? 

The law is crap, but it's the law which should be blamed, not those who enforce it.  To make an exception here would have set a precedent for others in similar situations to evade the consequences.  To allow him to be sent abroad would have similarly been setting a precedent for others whose dogs are seized to send them abroad to friends or relatives.  (Only to reimport them later?  When it has all died down?  Under another name?) 

What grates a bit for me, is the way Victoria Stillwell has leapt onto the bandwagon...........yet she picked this one (high profile) individual to champion and fight for

Sure but indirect business promotion is expected & normal, thats what business people are about in numerous fields, its part of making a living. VS,along with dogs trust, rspca etc are all at it, rspca is the most notorious for dealing with high profile stuff & ignoring minor reports which have no publicity value.

> If they got themselves a legal dog in the first place (like rescues are supposed to be brimming with them, so buy an illegal dog instead)

If you get a cross breed from a rescue and somebody official (ie a policeman) states your dog looks like an illegal type, it remains an illegal type untill you can prove otherwise. There is no DNA testing to prove this, it is done by measurements and looks, so please, tell me how you could PROVE the dog would not fall under the heading of 'illegal type' defined as illegal because it LOOKS a specific way???????
As I said, 2 perfectly LEGAL breeds can result in a litter of dogs that fall under the illegal 'type' umbrella, so why would getting such a dog from a rescue centre suddenly render the dog legal, when the thing that makes it illegal is how it LOOKS not what it's parents are.

If you get a cross breed from a rescue and somebody official (ie a policeman) states your dog looks like an illegal type, it remains an illegal type untill you can prove otherwise

There is an obvious way to avoid that if anyone's buying a rescue.

>There is an obvious way to avoid that if anyone's buying a rescue.

Don't get a staffy cross, you mean? Or hide the dog away from public view?

As I said, 2 perfectly LEGAL breeds can result in a litter of dogs that fall under the illegal 'type' umbrella, so why would getting such a dog from a rescue centre suddenly render the dog legal,

So are UK rescues now doing into breeding progams of the sort of dogs you describe, interesting.

Not sure how you've extrapolated that, Denis. Why would you think rescue centres are breeding dogs when they're given plenty already?

Why would you think rescue centres are breeding dogs when they're given plenty already?

Its the way ML wrote their bit.

So who was the expert that assessed him and how did he come to the conclusions of the dogs unpredictability ?

Hethspaw, it is distinctly obvious that you don't know the entirety of the Lennox case as the main detail was not that he is an illegal breed. He is a lab crossed with an American Bulldog. All he has done wrong is LOOK like the illegal breed. People have championed this individual case so much to highlight the stupidity of Breed Specific Legislation because of how hard it is to enforce!

The main reason that people have been against him being put to sleep as there IS an exemption for dogs like this under the DDA, however the dog warden said that she was frightened of him and he was dangerously out of control, she was scared to go near him etc etc. Then, somewhere there were pictures found of her cuddling Lennox and letting him kiss her face etc.

Victoria Stillwell has made a point of publicly supporting this case because she was called to action by the owners. Had she not done anything I believe people would be criticising here for that too, so she can't really win can she?

She offered to pay for the re-homing costs of taking him to the USA where pitbulls are not illegal (not that he IS a pitbull.. he just LOOKS like one!)

it is distinctly obvious that you don't know the entirety of the Lennox case as the main detail was not that he is an illegal breed.

Which is what I wrote in my first post, never heard of him till today.

> As I said, 2 perfectly LEGAL breeds can result in a litter of dogs that fall under the illegal 'type' umbrella, so why would getting such a dog from a rescue centre suddenly render the dog legal,
>
> So are UK rescues now doing into breeding progams of the sort of dogs you describe, interesting.

I'm not sure what you mean? Did you think I was implying rescues are BREEDING dogs?
What I meant was - if a rescue has a bitch dumped on them (for example), that bitch is a LEGAL breed, the father is a LEGAL breed, the bitch gives birth to the puppies in the rescue, the rescue then put them up for re-homing (eg. staff cross lab), if somebody official says they are ILLEGAL then you have to PROVE that they are not illegal, which is impossible to do as they only need LOOK a certain way, ergo, just because you got that pup (eg. lab x staffy) from a rescue does not give you 'proof' that is 'legal' as it meets the criteria to be ILLEGAL.

.............................

> There is an obvious way to avoid that if anyone's buying a rescue.

How?
A piece of paper with the parentage written on it is of no use as a cross-breed that LOOKS a certain way can be deemed ILLEGAL, it matter not what the parents are.

however the dog warden said that she was frightened of him and he was dangerously out of control, she was scared to go near him etc etc

So that was the part of the DDA the dog was under, ok, odd some others seemed to be going along with the illegal breed thing as well as me.

...and to clarify my position, it is not supporting or condeming the DDA, it is how on earth so many people expect to buy & keep illegal dogs, drugs, guns or attack helicopters and not have them confiscated relevant to the object beggers belief, those who rant and rave about illegal dogs are no less irrational than someone creating a lot of fuss all over the net forums & net media about having his or her attack helicopter confiscated.

Both the illegal dog 'possesor' and the illegal attack helicopter 'possesor' are guilty of an offence, there is NO difference as far as both the law & rational thinking of the average person are concerned. I thought (hoped in vein no doubt) that point would come across in my early posts.

I would like to think and in my heart hope that it happened, that the person in charge of Lennox this morning took him for a long walk in lush grass and gave him some roast chicken for breakfast.  Just made his last few pained moments on this earth pleasant.  Run free Lennox

> is how on earth so many people expect to buy & keep illegal dogs

But the owners didn't buy an illegal dog, they didn't go and buy a pit bull, they bought a cross breed, just as most have said, you can take on a rescue cross breed and then a police officer can seize it if they feel the dog is a type of banned breed!

>If they got themselves a legal dog in the first place (like rescues are supposed to be brimming with them, so buy an illegal dog instead) there would have been no goodbys.

Not everybody knows or understands that some dog breeds are illegal.  A colleague of mine who knows very little about dogs bought an APBT x Staff for her husband as a birthday present.  He had always wanted a SBT and she did what a lot of 'average' pet owners do and opened the local paper to look for a pup. Purebreed SBTs were beyond her budget but there were litters of 'Irish' Staffies advertised at a price she could afford.  Even when the breeder she visited introduced her to the Mum and openly told her that Mum was APBT (Dad was apparently purebred SBT but she never saw him), my colleague had no idea how they differed from a SBT or that there were legal implications to owning one. As far as she was concerned, it looked vaguely like the type of dog her husband liked and would therefore fit the bill. She bought the pup in blissful ignorance that one day it could be seized and PTS. 

In Belfast, APBTs and crosses thereof are ten a penny.  With easy access to the Republic of Ireland where APBTs are legal, there is no problem getting your hands on one to breed.  Why are BCC not doing something to tackle the widespread problem of breeding illegal dogs rather than pursuing a vendetta against one family pet that hasn't harmed anyone? 

As a resident of Belfast City Council area, it annoys me that I pay my taxes to fund such ineptitude.

> Both the illegal dog 'possesor' and the illegal attack helicopter 'possesor' are guilty of an offence, there is NO difference as far as both the law & rational thinking of the average person are concerned.

There is every difference as far as a rational thinking person is concerned. Guns drugs and weapons only have illegal purposes. To won a cross breed dog that is a loving family pet and does NO HARM to anybody is not immoral or illegal UNLESS somebody decides the dog LOOKS like it is illegal.

You are completely missing the point. The law stinks, why on earth should a family pet be destroyed for the way it looks, when dogs that actually do harm to people are let walk free because they DON'T look a certain way. The DDA was instilled to help get on top of DANGEROUS dogs, unfortunately, those that be have decided that if a dog LOOKS a specific way, it is a danger even if it is not behaving in a dangerous way. The DDA covers 'non-illegal' breeds, based on thier BEHAVIOUR, yet poor, innocent dogs that have not done any harm to anybody can be killed for being a cross breed that fits the 'type' look. - It's disgusting and in no stretch of the imagination is it ever going to be seen by ANYBODY as being the same as gun or drug crime or owning an 'attack helicopter'!!

On another post, a  memember here was very concerned about an obviously dangerous dog being sold, it IS a danger to the public, that dog is a LEGAL breed, so the owners can flog it on for lots of money - LEGALLY, yet you have the cheek to think people are out of order to think that Lenox and dogs like him - dogs that have done NOTHING WRONG deserve to be killed.

There is a picture of the dog warden kissing and cuddling him- that's how afraid she was!! She has to live with her actions for the rest off her life. Thankfully Lennox is now free from being incarcerated in kennels and left unloved, being denied his final moments with his family and apparently will have his ashes returned to them throughj the post.

I HAVE followed this from the beginning and am afraid that I do not have much patience with those who come in at the end and decide just to throw their two penneth in just because they can.

I am sorry if I appear rude but I am so sad and angry :(

A very sad day.

Run free Lennox. 

It interests me that even though almost every post Denis makes, has people avidly arguing and disagreeing, no one sees fit to ignore his posts...

Anyway...

>Victoria Stillwell has made a point of publicly supporting this case because she was called to action by the owners. Had she not done anything I believe people would be criticising here for that too, so she can't really win can she?

Yes, she could very well not have responded.  There are many other high-profile reward-based dog trainers who are well-aware of the Lennox case, and offer no more than arm-chair support via Twitter - yet we're not berating them for not getting further involved, so I doubt we would have berated VS either.

I don't really see what there is to debate:  We're all (excluding the person I'm suggesting ignoring) in agreement that the legislation is rubbish and flawed and needs to be overhauled, and that's the target.  Not the people who enforce the legislation.  I'm sure many of us are opposed to capital punishment, but we are not up in arms at the specific prison where it occurs, nor the person or organisation who presses the button - but at the law which is the reason for it to occur.  Perhaps Lennox's death will be a cause for people to rally behind and change this stupid law.

Yes, she could very well not have responded.  There are many other high-profile reward-based dog trainers who are well-aware of the Lennox case, and offer no more than arm-chair support via Twitter - yet we're not berating them for not getting further involved, so I doubt we would have berated VS either.

I do feel as though that the pressure on VS and CM too (Although I would never support the latter) was higher than many other trainers. Let's face it, the publicity is going to have a good effect for her. However I think it's a sad world if we can't just accept the fact that she wanted to help the cause as it is something she believes in.

What a sad sad day :-( Poor poor dog being incarcerated for such a long time, like someone else said, he would have been better off being PTS a long time ago. I totally disagree with keeping dogs locked up in rescue kennels etc for long periods of time, it cannot possibly do any man nor beast any favours.

Another sad thing is that I can only see this going one way or another. Either the law stays as it is, poorly thought out, upheld and deeply flawed or completed changed to satisfy the radical opinion of our opposition and that is a total change in the way ALL dogs are owned. I can see the more this law is challenged and protested about, the more likely it is that all of our dogs will be muzzled in public and heavily licensed one day. At the end of the day, Joe public is getting fed up with hearing about dog attacks on the news. Its fairly obvious who is going to end up paying for the stupidity of a minority; us the ordinary dog owners.

Statement from Victoria Stillwell:
"I am so disgusted and want everyone to know how low Belfast City Council have stooped. The Barnes family heard about the death of their beloved dog through me because I had been told by a source at BBC Radio Ulster. After what the council put the family through they didn't even have the decency to inform the family first before everyone else know. Someone involved in this mess needs to lose their job. If this is the way they represent their citizens then Belfast beware. Belfast City Council should hang their heads for the shameful and insensitive way they have handled this. Heartless doesn't even begin to describe the people surrounding this case. Appalling and I can assure you, this will NEVER be forgotten!"

Denis/Hethspaw, you are back on my ignore... your lack of compassion has proved itself once again. 
From now on I only want to hear from those who, like myself HAVE followed this from the start and have cared about the fate of this poor dog and his family. Disgusting doesn't even begin to cover it.

Sleep well, Lennox.

> Denis/Hethspaw, you are back on my ignore... your lack of compassion has proved itself once again.

*LIKE*

I have followed this story and cannot believe the total lack of decency shown by Belfast CC. I too believe that this poor boy has been killed much earlier than they are saying so that there was no 'going back'. I do not know how that Dog Warden can sleep nights and I really hope that at some time this preys on her conscience and lives with her.  I do not for one minute believe that they would carry the deed out at 7am in the morning so yet again another lie and the fact that the family were not permiited to say their goodbyes is just appalling. Really hopoe this comes back to bite them on the backside. Glad I don't live in Belfast.

Oh and my ignore list has just grown!

Mine too - I was already thinking it was time I ignored Hethspaw after their comments on another post, and this has decided me.

If enough people ignore do you think we could get a ban? i'm mean if everyone has ingorned someone theres little point them being here ;)

I find the whole thing really sad their is another one on fb now i see Victoria stillwell post about it today Duke from somerset has been taken by police and the family now face a lengthy battle to get him back, very said, :-(

their was a loose pit bull in the local park today,, i looked around for ages and no owner in site he was wondering round aimlessly i had to leave the park as i didnt want him coming near my bullies as i didn't know nothing about this dog,

i got round the corner near my house and wooow see the warden (stroke of luck i thought) so i went up to tell him he told me to see his partner who was far behind him as the first warden was following a man and his staff who had just pooped on the floor and the man had failed to pick up,, so waited on the corner of my road with my dogs for the second warden to catch up once he got to me i tried explaining theirs a loose dog in the park no owner about at all,, his answer was we're  dealing with another incident here!,, I pointed out that the dog they where following happened to be on a lead with its owner and hardly a danger,, and iv just seen a loose dog wondering round near the kids one o clock club,,,

thought that may be more important than a man leaving his dogs mess on the floor,,, obviously not,,, they where on their radios calling back up while this poor lad was trying to walk away as quick as he could and they really followed him all the way up the road,,,, lol,,,

I do hate that no one picks up around here it does annoy me but today i would have allowed it in the hope that them following him would have been enough to have scare him into not leaving his dogs mess in the future,

if only they would have just gone and got this loose dog under control, seems a pitt bull wondering round our estate alone is ok ,, no problem,

I feel sorry for the little girl who has lost her soul mate, how do you explain that to a little girl who will never see her friend again.
Only in a box.
Rest in peace lennox may you and your little girl be together in peace one day x

Nessa

I just came across this on my fb whats going on here is this some kind of assessment,, i thought was mean how he never gave the treat in the beginning when the dog was sitting good,,, but i am not expect and have no idea on how they would asses a dog at all,, did she slap him i think i missed that bit,   http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/07/video-reveals-belfast-city-council-member-slapping-lennox/