Kyiro my 33kg 6yr old Greyhound suffers with a very loud gurgly tummy every so often. It used to be once a month but is getting more and more frequent. When he gets it he is obviously in pain and refuses food.
I have him on Burgess sensitive dog food,with a dessert spoon of pro biotic yogurt on each of the two meals, he also has some prize choice fresh meat added, but when he gets one of his tummys I offer him chicken and rice and later in the day, as his tummy settles he will accept it and he has this for a couple of days before I slowly put him back on his normal food.
He is never sick and does not have dire-rear, but after his tummy episode he always has a couple of poo's covered in mucous.
I am thinking of doing away with the complete food and just feeding him Wainwrights trays in the morning and prize choice frozen blocks (cooked) in the afternoon.
I will not feed chicken wings or anything with bones so please don't suggest it as I have had problems with two dogs that I tried that with and they ended up in the vets.
If i was to feed the wainwrights trays and the prize choice, how much do you think he would need and what should I add to make sure he gets all he needs and gets a balanced diet?

He sounds similar to one of mine, I finally worked out it was rice that was causing the problem, I'd be inclined to try him on either a meat and veg food, such as JWB lamb and veg or a grain free such as CSJ no grainer.

sounds like colitis to me.  a change in diet could help this and what you suggest sounds good.  I wouldnt be cooking the prize choice though, its meant to be fed raw.

It might be worth considering raw feeding, I know a lot of sighthounds that really thrive on it (but that had dodgy tummies on dry).

It does say on the back of the prize choice packets to cook it in microwave, which i have always done when mixing it with their supadog.  Well except the tripe that is as thats stinky!
Would I need to add any vegetables or vitamins to it for them? and how much would you think a 33kg dog would need per day?.

Hi Bev,

The Prize Choice is a raw food and doesn't need to be cooked. I'd definitely recommend switching over to a raw diet. You know exactly what is going into your dog and that it is a natural product, the way nature intended dogs to eat.

It is a diet that does take a little bit of getting used to, but as someone who has recently switched from a similar diet regime to yours, I find that the hardest thing to do is remembering to defrost the food the night before!! If you feed a good mixture of about 60% meat, 20% offal and 20% bones you are covering all grounds.

The best part is you can add loads of additions such as veggies and table scraps to the diet, and a good raw meaty bone is great to occupy your dogs and exercise the jaws.

If you're looking at reading up on the topic, I would recommend Ann Ridyard's book. It is good for those switching over it is written by someone who has long advocated the benefits of raw but has no nutritional background. If you prefer a more scientific angle, Tom Lonsdale's books are good too. You can get Tom Lonsdale's pretty cheap on eBay or Amazon but Anne's is a bit more expensive as you can't really get them secondhand.

You can pick up really handy bits of raw from Pets at Home, they do a 2kg gram of veg nuggets which I just defrost with the meat and it makes a handy addition- no need for blenders etc when preparing veg. They also do big bags of poultry necks which are frozen.

Josh

> The Prize Choice is a raw food and doesn't need to be cooked. I'd definitely recommend switching over to a raw diet. You know exactly what is going into your dog and that it is a natural product, the way nature intended dogs to eat.

Josh, the OP has already said she is unwilling to feed anything with bones in it, so that would make going over to raw somewhat difficult for her.

I do understand what an epiphany it is when you first start raw feeding [been there myself!] but it's wise to bear in mind that it really isn't for everyone, for a variety of reasons.... sometimes personal, sometimes due to individual dog/s and what they can tolerate, and sometimes because of other humans in the household, e.g. immune-compromised children or adults. My elderly mother is a bit confused, and sometimes goes rootling around in the fridge - if I'm not careful she'll put the dogs' defrosting food next to the Sunday joint - or open the plastic tubs, give the tripe a poke, wondering what it is, then make me a cup of tea without washing her hands...

> It does say on the back of the prize choice packets to cook it in microwave,

I defrosted one once on high by mistake - the stench was revolting!!

I appreciate that you don't want to feed whole bones but this sort of mince - Prize Choice and other pet minces - are very good raw, and do contain some crushed/ground bone.  If he likes this mince then as long as you add a variety of their different meats and give him some offal too then this would be adequate for his meals and he won't need extra vitamins or indeed vegetables (unless you want to).

It's well worth doing your reading though if you are thinking of feeding raw as, even without the bony element, it's not an exact science and can be adjusted in a myriad of small ways to suit each dog, and each owner :)

As a  guide I feed two very active 30kg dogs 500g per meal when feeding purely minced meat.  I give a combination of tripe, chicken, economy mince (includes offal and lights) and either beef or lamb in one meal

> I appreciate that you don't want to feed whole bones but this sort of mince - Prize Choice and other pet minces - are very good raw, and do contain some crushed/ground bone.

You are quite right - I'd forgotten that!

In which case I wonder whether cooking it is advisable - cooked bone is not recommended, but perhaps the particles are so small, it isn't a problem?

Having owned a dog with a super sensitive digestion, I bought a small bag of every "sensitive" complete that I could find.  Didn't take price into consideration.  My boy chose Burgess Supadog Sensitive, and was fed it for years along with tinned Chappie. 

It may not be for everyone, but my boy thrived on the 2 combined, and always got super remarks about his coat and condition.

Josh, the OP has already said she is unwilling to feed anything with bones in it, so that would make going over to raw somewhat difficult for her.


I didn't actually notice that the OP didn't want to feed bones, however I think perhaps their opinion might be a little different if they fed a mince with bones in it as that is unlikely to cause the same problems associated with a whole bone.

> I didn't actually notice that the OP didn't want to feed bones, however I think perhaps their opinion might be a little different if they fed a mince with bones in it as that is unlikely to cause the same problems associated with a whole bone.

Not sure how the raw feeding gurus regard raw mince with bone in it, as being enough... most minces are 5% or less as far as I have been able to ascertain. Most raw feeders do add extra bone to that in the form of chicken wings or necks, up to what the dog itself can tolerate.

If the OP is cooking it, then the bone content is going to be nil nutritional value to the dog, as in a cooked state it won't be digested as it would be when raw., and will just pass through.

Not sure how the raw feeding gurus regard raw mince with bone in it, as being enough... most minces are 5% or less as far as I have been able to ascertain. Most raw feeders do add extra bone to that in the form of chicken wings or necks, up to what the dog itself can tolerate.

Obviously, as a newbie to raw feeding (albeit one who has researched it quite thoroughly) I can't say for certain, but I've read that the bone content is important for the calcium aspect, but then also the cleaning aspect it is great for too. Chicken and turkey carcass mince is quite high in bone from what I could ascertain. I personally add necks wings and thighs so far, mainly to bulk out the mince meals but also for the teeth cleaning properties, obviously that is something that the OP isn't comfortable with so the raw diet could still be adapted.

Of course, the ideal thing would whole carcasses with offal included fed as a meal, but that is not practical for the vast majority of owners. That is where we 'build the animal' through a number of meals throughout the week. If we're adapting the meal in these ways (I.E Feeding a mince, plus wings and a bit of offal) then what is to say that the raw diet can't be adapted in order to suit the OP.. I.E Mainly high-bone content minces plus offal and veg? Surely if it suits her lifestyle and her dog's stomach, it can be adapted and although without bones isn't *ideal*, it will still be a lot better than feeding a kibble or tray food that is irritating her dog's stomach?

Every single person I've spoken to or read about does it slightly differently anyways! I'm not trying to purport it as a 'one-size-fits-all' diet, but I do believe it is a really adaptable diet to suit dog's and owner's circumstances so long as the basics are covered.

If the OP is cooking it, then the bone content is going to be nil nutritional value to the dog, as in a cooked state it won't be digested as it would be when raw., and will just pass through.

Well of course, but that is why we are suggesting feeding it raw.

> most minces are 5% or less as far as I have been able to ascertain

It does depend on the source but many chicken minces are much higher than that as they are mostly ground carcass.  These ones can be as much as 70% bone...

...but yes, on the whole I like to feed real bones too - although I can understand why some owners are nervous.  Some dogs just don't eat them very well either although it was watching a friends dogs eat a chicken portion that finally persuaded me that I was headed in the right direction!

Josh with the greatest respect, I have already tried to present some valid reasons why some people do NOT want to feed raw.

I raw feed now, and my sister has done for over 13 years, dating from the time it was very new to most people. The fact that she had done it so successfully was a major part in my wanting to venture into it but I also did my research independently, plus trial and error at the start.

Can I just repeat that it is NOT for everyone, and doesn't suit EVERY dog and there may be reasons within a certain household where it is not possible, do-able or advisable.

Please give some leeway for those for whom it's not right? :)

I think I have already given some negatives as to where raw feeding can come undone, hygiene has to be top of the list.

It does depend on the source but many chicken minces are much higher than that as they are mostly ground carcass.  These ones can be as much as 70% bone...

Off the top of my head, DAF quoted me about 50%-70%. I have started to only feed the chicken mince alongside offal.

Can I just repeat that it is NOT for everyone, and doesn't suit EVERY dog and there may be reasons within a certain household where it is not possible, do-able or advisable.

Please give some leeway for those for whom it's not right?

Could you point me to the part of my post where I said it IS suitable for everyone? What I did say is that it's a very adaptable diet, so if you are able to feed raw then you can 'find your own way' as such.

I can point you to MY post where I have said that getting into Raw feeding is an epiphany!

May I ask you to take step back, especially in regard to the OP's original question... she does NOT want to feed raw - and her reasons for that MUST be respected as I have tried to point out.

Can we get back to the OP's query without going into raw feeding. It's not much to ask if the OP has reasons of her own NOT to want to feed that way.

Can we now discuss this on the OP's terms?

I can point you to MY post where I have said that getting into Raw feeding is an epiphany!

May I ask you to take step back, especially in regard to the OP's original question... she does NOT want to feed raw - and her reasons for that MUST be respected as I have tried to point out.

Can we get back to the OP's query without going into raw feeding. It's not much to ask if the OP has reasons of her own NOT to want to feed that way.

Can we now discuss this on the OP's terms?
Actually the only thing in reference to raw food that I can see is that she doesn't want to feed raw bones, which is why I suggested that she could still feed raw without feeding whole bones in terms of wings etc. Not sure why you have taken such an issue with this as I'm not the only one to mention raw. In any case, I was offering up a suggestion in order to help the OP, not trying to engage in some sort of debate that doesn't help the OP.

Edited to add: I double checked the thread to make sure I wasn't going mad and the only time the OP has discussed raw is asking questions about it, for instance; Would I need to add any vegetables or vitamins to it for them? and how much would you think a 33kg dog would need per day?.

That to me seems like someone who does want to know more about the raw diet, which is why I made my post.

> Actually the only thing in reference to raw food that I can see is that she doesn't want to feed raw bones, which is why I suggested that she could still feed raw

I took that as a clear indication the OP was not wanting advice about raw feeding...  she gave some indication why not.

If people aren't initially asking for help with raw feeding, then why push it on them?

See above, where I have edited my post. The OP showed an active interest in the raw diet before I even posted in the thread. The post is about a gurgling stomach and colitis. Really not sure why you're reacting the way that you are. I hope I haven't offended you in some way, but reading your posts it is as though you're not reading the same thread that I am!

If I had recommended some sort of kibble, would that still be seen as 'pushing it on them'? She didn't specifically ask about that, either.

Reread Josh the OP has expressed no interest in feeding raw she cooks the prize choice and wainwrights trays are a complete food. She has specifically asked if she would be able to maintain a balanced diet from feeding these two foods. Others have suggested raw which as has been pointed out the OP does not wish to do after previous bad experiences with bones.
Now please can everyone address the question asked without the side debates.

The OP asked a question about raw feeding to another poster. Look at the OP's second post.

No she only asks if she would need to add vitamins to them nothing about raw or cooked you are making assumptions enough.

Thank you everyone for your input.  I would have cooked the meat but have now changed my mind after doing some research on greyhound feeding.  I have put something of interest I found about greyhounds at the bottom of my post and as my boy is nervy and anxious already i won't be persuing it.
So today i will be going out looking at other diets and looking into the cost of just feeding the Wainwrights trays to both my greyhounds as they are already used to having a little of this on their breakfast anyway.

Serotonin is produced by the amino acid Tryptophan which occurs naturally in a dogs food intake. It is responsible for balancing and regulating dog's moods and in turn, their behaviour. It is important that the dog keeps a healthy balance of Tryptophan in their system as it controls just how much serotonin is absorbed into the dog's brain and nervous system. If a dog is timid or fearful by nature then it is possible that his Serotonin levels are low. When someone feeds their dog a very high protein diet such as raw meat, this diet contains a high amount of amino acids. These amino acids work compete with the tryptophan causing less Serotonin to be produced by the dog. Lack of serotonin in the system can cause uncharacteristic moods for the dog such as depression, aggression, fear and anxiety which can then lead to stress related conditions such as anti-social behaviours or even heart attacks. This would explain why there is such a high rate of heart attacks in racing greyhounds that are fed nothing but raw meat by their owners, and these dogs often suffer severe anxiety and depression.

> I have put something of interest I found about greyhounds at the bottom of my post -----
>
> Serotonin is produced by the amino acid Tryptophan which occurs naturally in a dogs food intake. It is responsible for balancing and regulating dog's moods and in turn, their behaviour. It is important that the dog keeps a healthy balance of Tryptophan in their system as it controls just how much serotonin is absorbed into the dog's brain and nervous system. If a dog is timid or fearful by nature then it is possible that his Serotonin levels are low. When someone feeds their dog a very high protein diet such as raw meat, this diet contains a high amount of amino acids. These amino acids work compete with the tryptophan causing less Serotonin to be produced by the dog. Lack of serotonin in the system can cause uncharacteristic moods for the dog such as depression, aggression, fear and anxiety which can then lead to stress related conditions such as anti-social behaviours or even heart attacks. This would explain why there is such a high rate of heart attacks in racing greyhounds that are fed nothing but raw meat by their owners, and these dogs often suffer severe anxiety and depression.

Bev may I please ask where you got this information from?
I have seen it reposted in another place today, without any reference to source or attribution.

Without going into too much detail it contains inaccuracies on several levels, and especially seems to sidestep the fact that the best source of L-Tryptophan is in raw meat. I would also like to know if indeed raw-fed racing greyhounds do have the issues they claim.

Unfortunately unless the source is found and the claims verified, then I personally wouldn't believe it... some things just do not ring true I'm afraid :(

It is also possible to supplement with L-Tryptophan if necessary, easily bought as a neutraceutical supplement over the counter.

> It does say on the back of the prize choice packets to cook it in microwave,

Not being funny Bev but have just looked on the pack of PC beef mince defrosting in my fridge and they recommend it being fed raw - No microwave instructions there at all?

MsT, I've found this "Impact of nutrition on canine behaviour: current status and possible mechanisms" .
With a quick skim-through I found this:
As tryptophan is normally present in only small concentrations in dietary protein compared with other LNAA, the consumption of a meal high in protein will decrease the ratio of tryptophan to other LNAA47 and thereby potentially lower serotonin synthesis. (page 182, end of first paragraph on the right)

I've been in discussion on here before over the fact that I would disagree with a RAW diet being a high-protein one.  Iif RAW is not high-protein (obviously meat is high in protein compared to veg, but not compared to some complete kibbles), then it would not have any detrimental beahvioural effects, if it is high-protein, then it would be wise to avoid it with a nervy dog. So it all boils down to what is considerd 'high' protein.

ETA edited to get the link working!

It may not recommend to cook the beef mince but the frozen blocks of  chicken turkey and fish can be cooked.
Taken from the website

The chicken, turkey and fish are a favourite with many of our cat breeder customers, and can be fed raw or cooked. However, these are formulated to dogs rather than cats at the moment, so we would recommend taking a list of the ingredients to your veterinary surgeon, and asking him to advise whether he considers any further supplements would be useful in managing your cat's diet.

my understanding is that if you feed a cooked diet rather than raw you will lose alot of the nutrients that a natural diet has in the cooking process.

Right as the OP has decided to do her own research on feeding wainwrights trays full time I will just clear a few things up.
The OP asked for advice on feeding a regime she was interested in.
She stated she did not want to feed Bones due to previously bad experiences so was looking for specific advice.
Fair enough a number of threads do go off topic slightly with side debates being on going however to have the one feeding regime, she definitely didnt want to follow being pushed even for all the best reasons (I am not against raw feeding) was not on topic.
Prize Choice do state some of their food can be cooked therefore I assume this means they consider it safe and still to have nutritional value to do so.
However if that was not the case then the advice the OP was looking for was what else would she need to add to make it a balanced diet.

I dont feed a raw diet but do buy P C Frozen blocks and cook them up a few times a week and mix with a grain free kibble.

Thank You for all your helpful posts.  Just to update you.  I have have had my two greyhounds on Wainwrights trays for the last week, with a little plain mixer added. 
I am already thrilled with the result.  I have less waste coming out the other end, no more smelly wind, poo is nice and firm and they are both looking good, and polishing their bowl clean instead of looking disinterested and leaving half of it.
So far so good and I am hoping this will continue to be a diet that will suit them both.

bevb I use the wainwrights trays as a backup for raw when I have forgotten to get it out of the freezer and my lot love it.  It is a complete wet food so there is no need to feed mixer unless you really want to.  It was what I fed before I went across fully to raw and my lot thrived on it.