Hi
We have been to see some border collie pups and the owner would like them to leave at 5weeks old due to holiday commitments. I would like to hear from experianced owners if this is okay?

No no no no no!

No No No if they cannot put the full time in to raise these puppies to a suitable age to leave home another two weeks at least IMHO, what else have they ommitted. Are the parents health tested ???? The puppies need to learn so much at this age from their mum and sibblings as well as the breeder.

Hi
Thanks for the reply these pups are from heath tested parents. The breeder said that the pups can be left with mother but the house minder would give little interaction with them so thought it best to let the new owners take them at 5week. Everywhere i have read suggest 8 weeks as the last weeks the pups are learning soo much from mum.

No! 5 weeks is far too young to leave, plus there are health tests to be done which need doing from about 6 weeks of age. Walk away from this bad, uncaring breeder.

I would be questioning why a breeder has either booked a holiday when pups are going to be at that age or why they have gone ahead with a litter when they knew they had holiday commitments that the litter would over run.

Who breeds a litter knowing they are going on holiday or booking a holiday once the litter has arrived?????

I know we all need a holiday once the litter has been raised and gone to their new homes but that's a different matter!!

I wouldn't be happy at all about this and would definitely NOT take a pup at 5 weeks.

Hi
What a hot topic and so it should be. As we are rather new could you please inform me of what i should expect when collecting a pup from around a weeks. If these are kc registered should i be expecting certificates and what health tests are usually carried out.
Many thanks for the help so far !

You should certainly get a KC registration document, and the pups should be BAER hearing tested; border collies have a statistically higher incidence of deafness compared to the general canine population.

Yes, a hot topic, border collies should be able to leave home from 7 weeks - if the place is awful and they're not getting any interaction 6 weeks is really the earliest and anyone wanting you to have a pup at 5 weeks shouldn't be looking after pot plants never mind breeding dogs :-(

Health certificates for the parents are - Hip Scoring, eye tests, gonioscopy (for glaucoma) eye test, DNA tests for TNS and CEA, possibly BAER hearing tests but adults and pups but there aren't many testing places and it's not even 'recommended' as yet for border collies, but perhaps it should be.

For pups the only possible tests are eye tests and hearing tests.  Certainly if the parents aren't DNA tested for CEA then you should ensure the pups are tested, but really there's no excuse these days.... the breeder should show the certificates for the parents and puppies.  If they're KC registered then you should also have the KC certificate for the pups, but depends how old they are and if this person has registered them.

Puppy eye screening is still recommended.

DNA for CL also although thats rarer its still out there.

5 wks is far too early.

6 wks is ok, but few reputable breeders in the UK think so - despite research finding this.

7 or 8 wks are absolutely fine.

But yes 5 wks is far too early, and it's not just about the age of the pup - but what this says about the breeder.  You need to pick a good reputable breeder who will be supportive and ensure all health checks and socialisation has been carried out.  Someone who knows so little/cares so little to let pups go at 5wks suggests that this breeder will be remiss in other ways too.  Walk away and find someone else.

Shocking, what kind of people would have a litter knowing that they won't be there once they are five weeks?  Please run away.

> The breeder said that the pups can be left with mother but the house minder would give little interaction with them so thought it best to let the new owners take them at 5week.

Tough they knew when they mated their bitch they had a holiday booked so why mate her.

With my breed I let them go from 7 1/2 weeks, which means a Sunday with my current litter, (often people coming a long way to collect find weekend travelling easier). 

As it is only one is going that soon, the rest are going after that and the last two not until 9 1/2 weeks due to new owners having holidays.

When planning a litter you need to cover for three months from when pups are born to cover most usual eventualities.

My pups will be 5 weeks on Thursday and I couldn't imagine them leaving yet, they are only just venturing outdoors, and still very much need each other and their Mum..

If you take the pup at 5 weeks and you have a problem the breeder isn't going to be about for advice.

I agree with everyone else go and look elsewhere.

thankfully CL still very rare here, although much more common in Australia, so I wouldn't necessarily expect a DNA test for this, although it would be nice, it's not as likely as CEA

Epilepsy would be my main worry in a BC/WSD litter... can't be tested for, and relies on the breeder and all those breeders beforehand on both sire and dam's side to be honest and upfront.

I can only agree and support everything which has been written here, and something a little off topic too - as novices are you prepared for the demands of a Border Collie?  They are a wonderful breed for the right owner, but I would never recomend them to a novice.  Those traits which may attract you to them - intelligence, agility, etc. make them hard to live with if you don't know how to train and harness the natural instincts to make the dog a good pet and companion.  They are extremely highly driven, have very, very roounounced natural instincts and a very low boredom threshold.  Have you done lots of research, and has the breeder explained all about the BC's ways?

Five weeks is far too early to leave the nest. Puppies learn so much from their mum up to the 8weeks stage and derive comfort from the suckling and nurturing she provides even though their nutritional needs are met with solid food by this time.

This breeder should be avoided irrespective of  issues of health screening , pedigree or whatever.He/she should not have mated the bitch if she/he had holidays booked.  Sadly, I have heard of a well known exhibitor and breeder who 'shoves' her puppies out at 6 weeks. I really don't care which book says what about ideal age to place puppies in their new homes. I just know from many years of experience that puppies have a lot to learn from their mums up to 8 weeks and beyond  and benefit from remaining with her at this time. We all know that this can be a a noisy, mucky stage with puppies and I guess some breeders just want an easy life.

> We all know that this can be a a noisy, mucky stage with puppies and I guess some breeders just want an easy life.
>
>

That's exactly it up to 5 weeks pups are relatively easy and undemanding requiring mainly food and a place to sleep and begin to play. 

From 5 weeks (or a little earlier) they will want more space, be awake more, play louder and louder, and boy mess, chew and yell!

This can mean quite a stressful as well as busy time for the breeder, worrying about disturbance to neighbours from noisy puppy play often very early mornings, the demented seagull calls of the pups when Mum is forcibly weaning them off the milk bar etc.

I know of someone who bought a border collie puppy a couple of years ago... anyway, my daughter went to see it (It was a friend from school), when she cane home she said Mum it was so much smaller than I was expecting and they were having trouble getting it to eat :-( I told her to tell them to take it to the vets asap as it had come without any form of vet check at all. They took her and vet reckoned pup was only about 5 weeks old :-(  Can't remember if any treatment was given such as antibiotics but next morning when my daughter's friend went down to check on her, pup was dead in her bed :-( :-( Totally heartbreaking.
How on earth could anyone consider letting a puppy go at 5 weeks old? I am not saying that was why pup died, but vet def said it was likely a contributing factor.

Putting aside whether this puppy is old enough to move to a new home ( the reasons have all been given).....

Why finacially reward such an opportunist? I think youll find the commonest reason for letting 5 week olds go is the mother is no longer feeding and cleaning them.

The holiday will probably be an excuse.

There are a number of carriers of CL being bred from to my knowledge so I would expect CL status to be know.
:-)

yes for choice... out of interest are they British or Australian lines?

Obviously being bred down form the one import they originate from Australian lines but now carry various lines however without testing how would status be know.

I'd have a look on anadune ;-)  asking because whilst they clearly went from UK to Australia and you'd think (like TNS) that there would be some UK dogs carrying CL it is really incredibly rare in UK.  Did the people bringing the dogs in test down the lines to ensure it was removed? that dogs we eventually not bred carrying the gene?  It would be hoped in a responsible breeder that the CL would be eliminated, although this clearly didn't happen for the poor pup who died from TNS in UK not that long ago.  So looking back at the pedigree I wouldn't necessarily expect a pup with only UK lines for the parents to have been DNA tested for CL - sadly a lot of collie owners AND breeders have barely heard of CEA never mind CL or TNS unfortunately :-(  A poor excuse, but one found only too often.

Will take this off thread as its going to take up the OPs post if we continue chatting about it here.

It is my belief that it is illegal to sell a puppy under 6 weeks of age some thing to do with the breeding and welfare of dogs act I fmy meemory serves me well My appologies if not

Unfortunately it's not illegal; there is no minimum age at which a puppy can be sold. Licenced breeders cannot sell a puppy to its final owner before 8 weeks of age, but ironically can sell them at younger than this to pet shops for retail. A non-licenced breeder can sell a pup at any age.

Hey everyone,
Thanks so much for the replys. I put some questions to the breader and guess what no reply. Feel I should name and shame. So we are still looking for a pup if anyone can help location Suffolk uk.
Cheers

If the breeder has said the pups will be KC registered I would contact the KC to advise them of the breeder wanting to get rid of the pups at 5 weeks!
Do you know if they are Kennel Club Assured Breeders?

Guide Dogs do 6 weeks all the time. I would never have let my pups go before 8weeks. they were having so much fun/learning from their littermates! nothing beats the learning they get from the rest of the gang.

If there is a DNA test available why don't the breeders test?  I know in my breed there's a DNA test for a problem which hadn't showed it's head in the UK and many of us have since tested.  Since then sadly there are now cases.

My working sheepdog bitch was DNA tested for CL as well as TNS and CEA. You might as well, if you're testing for the other things.

Guide dogs do this simply because their dogs are kenneled so they'll get more socialisation if they go to the puppy walkers.. sad but true... good responsible breeders who don't kennel their dogs and just leave them to their own devices keep them to 7 or 8 weeks and they do the socialisation and they get a lot of being with 'mum' and any siblings and other dogs etc around the place.

Sadly many of those who are forced to keep the pups to 8 weeks by law (ie puppy farmers who have a local council license) will carry out the least socialisation and this is a big problem - IF anyone has to buy from these places it would be better to have them at 6 weeks.  Of course there are many responsible people with a license as they differ around the country.

> Guide dogs do this simply because their dogs are kenneled

I always understood their brood bitches lived with families.

If there is a DNA test available why don't the breeders test?  I know in my breed there's a DNA test for a problem which hadn't showed it's head in the UK and many of us have since tested.  Since then sadly there are now cases.

Some because they 'don't believe in tests', some because they've never heard of the problems never mind that their are DNA tests available and some because they're complete idiots.

A bad case is someone who doesn't much believe in the tests although has had CEA DNA tests done, used a (British) dog who was then tested and found to be a TNS carrier.  The someone bred from the bitch she kept to a completely untested (British) dog... one of the pups was tested and found to be a carrier... sheer stupidity.  the owner of the original dog had a number of conversations about breeding from a person who bought a pup sired by her dog and not once did they mention TNS or the requirement to test or at least use a tested clear dog as a minimum... the person who bought the pup hadn't even heard of TNS until I mentioned the status of her bitch's sire.... fortunately she's decided against breeding.

I always understood their brood bitches lived with families.

No, if they did I expect they'd leave them there until at least 7 weeks...

>>I always understood their brood bitches lived with families.
>No, if they did I expect they'd leave them there until at least 7 weeks...

Many do live and whelp with their 'foster' families, but not everyone has the facilities to whelp a litter, so those bitches go back to the Centre to have their litters. All the pups go to their walkers at the same age though.

> Many do live and whelp with their 'foster' families, but not everyone has the facilities to whelp a litter, so those bitches go back to the Centre to have their litters. All the pups go to their walkers at the same age though.

Yes, that is how I understood it.

You forget those who won't test due to cost, as it isn't cheap!!!

Guide dogs do this simply because their dogs are kenneled so they'll get more socialisation if they go to the puppy walkers..

of all the 18 pups that i walked, ALL were with their brood holders when whelped, then in quite a few cases were taken into the breeding centre at about 5.5 weeks so they could get them ready and out to were ever ther are to be puppywalked at 6 weeks. at least now they must be a certain weight before they go to the P/W at one point they didnt bother. but hey if anyone breeds from a 2yrs old bitch and has average of 5 litters, they must surly know what they are doing......

oh well, I knew some were out with people but heard a lot in kennels, that's even worse then if they take them away from mum and siblings at 5.5. weeks and out to walkers at 6 weeks, its shocking

but then a friend has a reject hearing dog for the deaf - not bred by them, but taken on by them as a pup and then rejected at 10months, thankfully really, I've never seen such a quiet and subdued dog and her blossoming into a normal dog for her breed has been a joy to see.

PennyGC they will have some in kennels, but most are outside. the BB holders would be up in arms if they didnt get to whelp their pups. one bitch ( i have nothing to do with them anymore!) THAT I p?w THAT WENT ON TO BE A bb WAS PUT TO A STRANGER IN HER LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS THEN WHELPED BY THIS PERSON AS THE G.D.STAFF MEMBER WORKED AND COULDNT DO IT. SORRY ABOUT CAPS, JUST NOTICED!

ok a question for you good folks... don't guide dogs have to be licensed to breed? they must breed more than 5 litters a year? So, although they're not selling the pups shouldn't they stay with their mums until 8 weeks? all other licensed breeders have to keep them until 8 weeks!

>that's even worse then if they take them away from mum and siblings at 5.5. weeks and out to walkers at 6 weeks, its shocking

It's my understanding this isn't correct - when they go into the centre to be assessed and sent out to puppy walkers, the whole litter will go together and be kept together until they go to individual puppy walkers at 6wks.  I also believed that mum often comes too, and stays with them at the centre until they have gone to puppy walkers.

Socialisation is paramount for guide dogs, so you can be sure they are following the most up to date guidelines and research - which finds that the best age is 6wks.  Not 7 or 8wks.

See:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/puppysocialisation1

"Derek found that six weeks was the best time to place puppies in private homes; any later critically reduced the time left before the puppies reached twelve weeks; but if puppies were removed from their dam and litter mates before six weeks they missed the opportunity to be properly socialised with their own kind, which resulted in inept interactions with other dogs in later life. The training success rate soared because of this policy, which was carried out in conjunction with the management of the gene pool via the breeding scheme Derek also pioneered. Annual success rates in excess of 75 percent became common. You might think that this is a special scheme for dogs with a special function. In fact, what the scheme provides is adult dogs with sound temperaments. These dogs coincidentally make the best material for guide dog training which does not start until they have been assessed at ten months or older. "

"Of those in group A we have to take into account the fact that breeders sometimes cannot find enough suitable homes quickly enough. Having said that, it is unfortunate that some breeders believe that most families are unsuitable to look after a puppy when it is six weeks old, although it is difficult to see what suddenly makes a family suitable when the puppy is eight, ten or twelve weeks old. All too often breeders, unaware of the harm they are doing, retain puppies well into and sometimes past the critical socialisation and habituation period so that they, the breeders, have time to choose which puppy or puppies they wish to keep for showing before launching the rest on the unsuspecting public. There is in essence nothing wrong in the breeder retaining a puppy for as long as they want, as long as they systematically ensure that each puppy is properly socialised and habituated as an individual. Each puppy needs to learn to cope with the environment without the support of its litter brothers and sisters and other dogs. Although this is possible, in practice, it is very time-consuming."

"Prospective owners can maximise their opportunities to socialise and habituate their puppies by obtaining them at six weeks old, having already made arrangements for the appropriate vaccination programme with a veterinary surgeon. Of course failing to obtain a puppy at exactly six weeks does not automatically lead to disaster, but the later puppies are acquired the more precious time will have been lost and the less likelihood there is of developing a sound temperament...The prospective purchaser of a puppy can check that some degree of socialisation and habituation has taken place. Ideally, they will have sought out a breeder who will let them see the puppies with their dam in their living quarters prior to the optimum "go home" age of six weeks."

> the later puppies are acquired the more precious time will have been lost and the less likelihood there is of developing a sound temperament...

Does this equate to having a sound temperament among other dogs? Or does it refer only to the type of socialisation a Guide dog needs, i.e. to ignore other dogs when working and to place human interaction above all else?

>don't guide dogs have to be licensed to breed? they must breed more than 5 litters a year? So, although they're not selling the pups shouldn't they stay with their mums until 8 weeks? all other licensed breeders have to keep them until 8 weeks!

As you say, they're not selling the puppies so the law about the Sale of Dogs doesn't apply. Also you're forgetting that licenced breeders are allowed to sell puppies at under 8 weeks as long as it's to a licenced pet shop.

> So, although they're not selling the pups shouldn't they stay with their mums until 8 weeks? all other licensed breeders have to keep them until 8 weeks!

They aren't being bred to sell, so no.

Also what we are forgetting is that we as breeders are all saying pups need to learn dog socialisation in the last few weeks with Mum and their canine family.  Guide dogs are wanted to be imprinted on people and probably not learning canine ways is an advantage in their future job as a guide where they can't just be a dog.