Can anyone tell me if a puppy who doesn't seem to sit squarely but with his hind legs splayed out in front of him (like a person sitting on the ground with their legs stretched out in front of them) might have a problem? Every pic I have of this pup sitting (about 6) shows him sitting like this. He's an 8 week old collie pup, neither parent hip scored.

Many thanks, M

In my experience all pups do this puppy sit for a while. as they grow up they move to the more traditional sit although the might return to that on occasion when relaxed or tired. he is still a little baby so i shouldnt worry.
I find it quite endearing

That's a very common position for dals on comfy chairs, and is in no way indicative of hip problems. :-)

My boston's still do that sit and they are 11 & 12 yrs old :-)

They do the frog lay when spread out on the floor on their tummies - so funny

I think it can go either way.

My dogs was like this when young and my vet always thought there was something not quite right.  At about 18 months she was x-rayed and had hip dysplasia in both hips.

Don't mean to be pessimistic but I don't think you can rule it out though some breeds are more prone to sit 'sloppy' than others.  My friend's labby does it all the time and her hips are fine.

Do you mean like this?
My dog has always enjoyed sitting like that, also over on one 'cheek', with both hind legs poking out to the side. He had his hips xrayed at 5 months (not due to the sitting) and they were fine. He is perfectly capable of sitting 'properly' but would rather take on a more 'slouchy' position.

Are these pics you've been sent of someone else's puppy?  Could it be that he does sit in other ways but this is the position they find most amusing and therefore the one they photograph...

I do think that some pups just take quite a while to get full control over themselves and don't know what to do with their legs, particularly when sitting on a soft surface, and in the meantime they look a bit like bean bags :)

Most of mine sit like that, but I woudln't touch a pup from a litter out of unscored parents full stop.

Yes, Mastifflover, just like that and also with the hips to one side as you described. Unfortunately, in working sheepdogs, health tests are rare so, Brainless, I may have to take the chance. As you know I bred last year from fully health tested parents hoping to keep a puppy but nothing in the litter for me so looking for a pup I can work. The breed lines, which are generally health tested, just don't appeal for several reasons. Any pup I buy will be health tested by me but of course that doesn't mean I'm not taking a risk by buying from untested parents, sadly I may have to do that. Thank you all for your replies.

I thought ISDS registered litters had to have full health testing?  Or is that just eyes?

I had a dog that stuck one leg out to the side when he sat, much like you describe. I never had him hip scored so don't know if bad hips were a contributing factor. I did try to teach him to sit correctly but never managed it reliably. I did obedience with him in a very small way and he would get marked for sits as he would automatically stick his leg out when he sat and as it was his right leg he twisted slightly as I was on the way making his sits crooked.
Your puppy might well grow out of it but my lad did it until he died at 16. Just thought I would mention it as I think you want your puppy for obedience. It is at times like this a crystal ball would be very useful.

The ISDS only insist on eyes Brainless although I do know some do hipscore.

I've seen other peoples puppies sitting like that, but none of mine have ever done it. Its good to find out it's so common because I always worry when I see it :-)

Yes, Lilyowen, hoping to do Obedience with the pup. Litter not ISDS registered and they generally only do eyes anyway. Used to seeing squint puppy sits but struck me that the pup I'm asking after always sat this way in all the photos (noticed one of his siblings in one of the photos doing the same thing). They're a 13 hour round trip away so guess what I might be doing next weekend lol. 

What's the breeders excuse for not hip scoring, I certainly know some obedience people do, though sadly most don't seem to, I don't know how, if they breed, they justify it to themselves, let alone potential puppy owners?

On a completely un-related note Mastifflover it is so lovely to see a fit healthy looking mastiff with lovely eyes and with the right body to skin ratio.  I have seen some awful examples being used in press recently (mostly the type that say all pedigree breeders are animal torturers etc.) but what a gorgeous dog you should be very proud!!

Hi Brainless. I think most of the collie/sheepdog breeders who don't health test are like this because they know they can still sell the puppies without testing as Joe Public doesn't realise the genetic conditions which collies can suffer and also that there are tests for them. I also think there is a fear that if they test they might potentially uncover a can of worms. Easier to tell themselves (and others) that they have never had a problem.

Then the only way to change their thinking is for people to not wish to buy their puppies.  I woudln't touch with a bargepole, no matter how much I liked the lines.

Quite honesty Brainless if I waited for a collie puppy which had been completely home reared (which is my own preference but harder to come by in my breed, people might have them in the kitchen for the first 3 weeks then stick them out in kennels), came from health tested parents who showed good working potential, and had a pedigree I liked, and was the colour I wanted (which is a less usual one in this breed, again my own preference but the heart wants what the heart wants) - I might never get a puppy.  That is why I bred my own litter and still didn't get the puppy I wanted.

It is easy for you to say be fussy and wait for the right breeder to come along as you are in a numerically small breed where the breeders do health test. You are very fortunate. For those of us with a breed which is also bred by farmers, joe public etc my not buying a pup from them is not going to make the slightest bit of difference to them, there are plenty of other buyers who don't know/care about the health tests. The best I can do is buy a pup I like and have him/her eye and hearing tested myself, then the other tests a bit later on. It is certainly not ideal but this is not an ideal world.

but sadly that is the way it keeps going. 

Surely there must be some people in obedience circles that test. 

I had a friend who used to breed and she hip scored eye tested and BAER tested the pups and bred the  chocolate and Merle colours.

Have you checked KC ABS listings, or working section breed club listings, for any breeder that is working line based, they are out there, to few and peer pressure needs to be applied so that more do.

Can you not persuade a breeder whose stock you like to test before they breed next?  If more potential owners asked for it they would eventually have to do it.  You shouldn't have to settle.

As for pups going out after a few weeks, it is almost impossible to keep puppies in my breed indoors past 4 1/2 weeks they are too active and too clean to be confined to a small area, and they need outdoor space for air and to develop their bodies properly, that doesn't mean getting put out and forgotten, LOL

Sadly not many people in Obedience do the health tests and if you rock the boat by asking why not then you are off the puppy list! Hence I did a 14 hour journey last year to use a stud dog who was health tested. It seems to be sod's law that if you find someone who tests, you won't necessarily like their dogs/what's behind them etc or I know they won't produce the colour I'm after. Very hard to get all the balls in the holes at the same time lol. Working people (farmers) seem to be even worse as they use the old adage 'Anything which didn't come up to scratch didn't live long or wasn't bred from'. Of course you would need the full vet history of every dog in that line and x-ray vision to know if a dog had bad hips, CEA, unilateral deafness etc let alone the other things we dna test for now. But you can't tell them as they have never had a problem!

Even if I could persuade a breeder to test her bitch (unlikely, probably seen as interferring or implying that she wasn't going the right way about things if she didn't) she would then have to persuade the stud dog owner to do the same and most breeders would rather not risk being rejected by the stud dog owner because they are asking too many awkward questions. People would rather stick their head in the sand then find out for sure their dogs/bitches might have a problem.

When I talked about puppies being kept outside, I meant people who keep them like this 24/7 at a time when they require the most attention. When you enquire closely what 'home reared' means they will say that the litter was in the lounge/utility room for the first few weeks and then permanently kennelled during the period (3-8 weeks) when they need a lot of handling, mental stimulation, and time spent with them. My pups had the lounge, then conservatory, then supervised access to the garden during the day but they were not left outside 24/7 to get on with it. My puppy vids show them merrily playing in the lounge, dining room, conservatory and garden throughout their 8 weeks with me. Look at collie adverts on the internet and too many of them show sad puppies stuck in a kennel/shed/barn with no toys/things to interact with. I know there are breeds who are pretty bomb proof and it doesn't seem to matter how much handling they get, their lovely temperament is unaffected but I don't think collies are one of them.  

It's difficult but I would stick to my guns and not drop my won standards.  Did you not get the sex you wanted in your own litter?  Could you not try again with a tested sire?  Even if you test the pup you get the information gained will be of limited use (I know you have to start somewhere) as there will be little back ground testing, which is important with complex inherited conditions like HD.

It was not a question of getting the right sex in my litter, Brainless. I was looking for the right character and temperament for me as a working dog. As I said before, it is very hard when looking for a stud dog in this breed to find a dog who works well and has a temperament I like/has a good pedigree/is health tested and no known problems in the line.