Hi All,

Nando's dog walker will walk him with her puppy sometimes, however the dog walker was discussing taking them out separately soon as she thinks she should be due her first season within the coming months. Anyway, before we got to this stage Nando began barking/growling randomly when she played with other dogs.

They were separated and now her season is over he is back to his usual lovely self!

Now... my aunt came to our house a few days ago and Nando's heckles were up and he did give her a little growl but then got over himself and gave her his usual snuggles and face licks!

My aunts dog, a week or two later, is now in full blown season (Again, a first season!)

Both of those incidents were really out of character.. however the dog walker (Who is very very dog savvy) said she wasn't alarmed by it and he wasn't being nasty, just a little warning. So I didn't think about it- until the incident with my aunt which we also thought was a bit odd- until I visited her today and it clicked- he must have smelt a bitch coming into season on her.

Has anyone heard of this before? It wasn't vicious but it's hard to explain so I hope I've explained the situation properly! I did think he might have been protecting the puppy but now think maybe this barking was over-excitedness at her smell?! I'm not 100% sure.

Edited to add: He met a husky pup just before her first season, too. (Just on a pavement walk!) and didn't have a bad reaction to her, however he doesn't go on walks with her like he does with the dog walker's pup)

Josh

I suspect the verbalising was more of the 'piqued interest' type (dogs on a scent will sometimes grumble under their breath or squeak etc) rather than growling a warning.

Sounds like eh will make a good early warning system for bitches coming in season, but he still is unsure what to do about it all.

Hormones! dont you love them. pups are much more tolerant of other dogs than adult dogs, your girl is just become an adult and discovering herself. if she is not good in a situation that she should be, tell her no, that is not acceptable. but bear in mind she is now in the process of becoming an adult. younger dogs need to learn to respect also, if an adult dogs gives off the vibes to 'stay clear'

Nando is an adolescent male.

I have both sexes, so have to separate during seasons.  When a bitch is due in my boys will walk around the kitchen growling under their breath at each other.  It alerts me to the fact that it is getting close.

whether male or female, growing up does affect both.

Thanks for the input. Glad it is nothing to worry about!

Barbara, I've just spat coffee all over my keyboard!!LOL!!!

I've seen similar behaviour today from my Linc.

In his case, we had a random entire (I think) lab run over and Linc took an instant dislike to him - threw himself towards him and actually over him in the OTT moment, all the while giving out a kind of gruff mini-roary grumbly sound.  That is totally unlike him - he loves every dog he ever meets, even the unpleasant ones, and is usually excellent at body language and calming dogs down.  He didn't actually do anything though, and did come away when I called him.

A little while after that I ran into Oscar wocker and his mum - Oscar is one of the worst dogs we meet for hitting the scent of a bitch in season and legging it.  Sure enough, he'd hit that scent and shot off following it in exactly the same place Linc had his little handbags moment.

Gotta love these hormones!  I must admit though I was thrilled to see that Remy didn't respond at all - Remy is keen on bitches in season around him and has protected River from a stray male before so I expected that him and Linc would have words, but not a peep :-)

Not sure I could cope if he started taking off after in-season bitches. He is very friendly with dogs he meets and if he was out of my sight I think he'd be in full blown puppy mode after every dog he saw!

Oscar's owners do have fun with him, if that's the right word lol!  There's a springer too who does the same thing - a few weeks back I made sure to warn both owners, that an idiot was walking his peak-of-season bitch round the main path of the park, on a sunny sunday afternoon.  Busiest park in town.  Oscar went straight on the lead, Merlin had already hit the scent and gone - thankfully he got a bit more worried about losing his owner and did show up.

My guys don't leg it thank dog - never show a sign of a scent, until Linc's behaviour the other day.  Of course, it would be helpful if the idiots wouldn't walk their in-season bitches at that park...

> it would be helpful if the idiots wouldn't walk their in-season bitches at that park...

We have often had this discussion on the forum. 

In season bitches should be kept at home or walked only where loose dogs are not allowed (pavement pounding/road walking), and that for the bitches safety where latchkey dogs do not abound.

These people are not only endangering their bitch but potentially causing issue for other dog owners who are not privy to the knowledge of the bitches 'desirable' status.

I speak as an owner of bitches only, with as many as three entire, and possibly in season together or overlapping.

My thoughts exactly - the one I had to warn the other owners about even had to pick his bitch up because she was getting upset with being bothered by other dogs (and these were neutered so nothing like the level of pestering she'd have had if Oscar or Merlin had found her).

Just ridiculous and irresponsible.

I'm of the same mind too - although I don't own unspayed bitches.

The day before my BSD cross was neutered we walked in a place we didn't go to often, and I was astonished when the owner of an off-lead dog in the same park casually mentioned her "Welsh Fox-Red" smooth-coated Border Collie bitch was in season

All credit to my boy, he paid her no attention whatsoever, but I was disgusted at the owner's cavalier attitude. If he had mated the bitch, the owner was no way responsible enough to deserve my lad's genes.

> In season bitches should be kept at home or walked only where loose dogs are not allowed (pavement pounding/road walking), and that for the bitches safety where latchkey dogs do not abound.<br />

Wouldn't that be lovely :)

Buster got the scent of a bitch yesterday (on-lead, but in an area lots of people walk loose dogs), I told him to leave it, which usually works, but he ignored me, I tried to encourage him away with a little presure on his lead but he wasn't going ot budge from that scent untill he'd had his fix of it. He chucked himself on the floor and lay sprawled out with his face stuffed in the grass, inhaling and shlurping the scnet. I couldn't move him untill he decided he was going to leave it - what can you do when a 14 stone dog decides to splat himself to the floor??????. I know, many will say it's a faliure in training on my part, but grrrrrr why can't in-season bitches be excersised away from heavy dog-traffic areas :(

MsT, we've met loose in-season bitches before - the mind boggles!! Unfortunatley, Buster found them VERY interesting - it's not very easy having to try to disuade a randy giant that he is not allowed to indulge the bitch that is offering herself to him!!!!! (bit embarasing too, having to walk a very large, 'excited' dog around in public - his 'excitement' is rather obvious *blush*)

Unfortunately, this is one of those few things I disagree strongly with the 'status quo' on this forum about!

I think each individual should be able to control their dog or not have it off lead.  That means - control it, whatever the distractions, and I don't think in-season bitches constitute some sort of 'completely different distraction, which is necessarily irresistible to male dogs' - it is another distraction. 

Case in point:  A dog I know was run over and killed, because he took off across a dual-carriageway towards an in-season bitch - who was ON LEAD, on the other side of it. 

A strong recall is a strong recall.  If you don't have control over your dog around in-season bitches, then don't walk it off lead if you are worried about running into them, or have your dog neutered if you are worried about the responsibility of owning an intact dog.

I speak as an owner of unspayed bitches who regularly walks them in season in dog walking areas - simply because they are a very high energy breed, and it is not fair for them to be unexercised except on lead for 4 weeks.  I wouldn't say we walk in areas which are 'heavy' dog walking areas, but on days when they're not in season we might come across 2-3 other dogs during an average walk.  When they are in season, we go to efforts to avoid other dogs as much as possible (for my own dog's sake) - it is usually possible to strike out in a different direction or through the undergrowth to avoid other dogs - but yes, they are still off lead.  They have always come instantly to me throughout their seasons and I can then put them on lead immediately. 

MY dog is absolutely and completely under my control.  Those who walk male dogs which do not come when called are not. 

Personally, for all those who claim that a dog faced with an in-season bitch is another category of distraction, I would like to stand there instead with 1) a squeaky toy and a tuggy and 2) garlic pate and a sardine wafted under the dog's nose, for distractions, and to see if those same dogs would come immediately to a recall from both those distractions.  99% would not. 

> I think each individual should be able to control their dog or not have it off lead.

My dog stays on lead 100% of the time, not because he can't be controlled, but because of public perception - he is leashed for the peace of mind of other people - to ensure the presence of my dog does not cause them to worry. 99.9% of the time he will leave the smell of a bitch on command, 0.1% he wont  (demonstrated by the fact that he chucked himself on the floor for a sniff - he'll be 5 years old in a couple of months and this is the FIRST time he's done that, so up untill then he would 'leave' 100% of the time ).

> Personally, for all those who claim that a dog faced with an in-season bitch is another category of distraction, I would like to stand there instead with 1) a squeaky toy and a tuggy and 2) garlic pate and a sardine wafted under the dog's nose,

You haven't ever owned an entire male that has been faced with an in-season bitch have you?
On your little test,
1), my dog wouldn't touch the toy if he was bored out of his head as he wont play with toys so it wouldn't distract him from anything
2) my dog will not take food off strangers, despite being highly food-motivated his natural dis-trust in stranegrs is stronger. So, I'd have to try a high-value food item to distract him on your beahalf - been there, done that it does not work!!!

Imagine a human male, he's just got a text from a very attractive woman, offering him 'pleasure' (bitch leaving her scent), would that male quit his journey to her for steak & chips/big mac/any favourite food item? Or would you consider that sort of 'offer' to be a rather tempting one - much mroe temping than a meal or a game of fottie with the lads?
People - (unlike dogs, as they are capable of rational thought) can ruin a relationship with a loved one over a one-night-stand, is it really sensible to think that ALL males dogs, 100% of the time should be trusted to never, ever bolt after an in-season bitch? (or vice-versa). I think it's foolhardy to expect that sort of dicipline from a dog, when it can't even be taken for granted in human beings!

> have your dog neutered if you are worried about the responsibility of owning an intact dog.

That doesn't stop a male dog being a male dog, it stops it being able to father a litter, it can still mate & tie and have the urge to do so.

Rabid,

What I have a problem with is that you find most in-season bitches off their lead do not have a great recall themselves. That is a problem in itself, as the more responsible owners will have their bitches on-lead, or if off lead they have doggy nappies on. (Unpleasant but I have seen it and I find them kinder on bitches if they really do need off lead time!) I find, and this is a sweeping generalisation, that the owners with in-season bitches off lead are generally the less responsible ones that don't have a great recall themselves. But that is just *my* findings and I'm not saying that this is fact.

Edited to add; I have a male with bad recall, when he sees other dogs. I take all necessary precautions to keep him away from in season bitches by having a long line on him dragging behind him so we can stop him if need be.

>MY dog is absolutely and completely under my control.

Then you have what most people would consider to be a freak of nature. It would be more realistic to expect a dog to never be totally predictable.

I would be inclined to agree with you Rabid. 
With the best will in the world there will always be in season bitches.  If they are not running in the park or walking on lead they could be in a garden behind a high fence alongside the park or across the street. 
It will always end up being the responsibility of the dog owner to both stop him being a nuisance and keep him safe for his own sake so dog owners may as well develop their strategy, be it training, lead restraint or neutering, right from the outset.

I do find it slightly ironic though that when I first asked what age to neuter Nando I was met with a wall of resistance telling me it is the bitches' owner's responsibility to keep their dogs safe and not my responsibility to keep Nando away.

I don't want to neuter him for other reasons now I have researched it, but when I first joined I felt a little bit 'jumped on' for even suggesting I should get him neutered to keep him safe from in season bitches.

> I was met with a wall of resistance telling me it is the bitches' owner's responsibility to keep their dogs safe and not my responsibility to keep Nando away.
>
>

Not from me you didn't  :)

> That doesn't stop a male dog being a male dog, it stops it being able to father a litter, it can still mate & tie and have the urge to do so.

Very, very true.  Linc's behaviour as I described above shows that - he was neutered no later than November, possibly earlier.  Remy also will not only aggress at another dog if he is with an in-season bitch (doesn't happen now, but before River was spayed I was walking them at 4am and he was trying to his damndest to have a go at the latchkey male following us).  He has also mated and tied with both River and Paige.

Fortunately neither boy takes off after scent - and Linc didn't show an interest when the idiot with the in-season bitch walked past us at the park - but the scent does still affect their behaviour.

> it is the bitches' owner's responsibility to keep their dogs safe and not my responsibility to keep Nando away.

It's both IMO - dogs will be dogs but bitches can be equally determined to be mated, so owners of both need to keep them safe.

Other distractions are usually something an owner can be aware of or practise for. 

An in season bitch is something most cannot prepare for, or owner be aware of (they haven't a canines nose), often until it is too late.

As a bitch owner I feel it my obligation to not only keep my bitches safe, but not to cause undue stress or inconvenience to other dogs and their owners.

No matter how high energy a breed is being kept on lead for the duration of a season is not the end of the world .  Sled dogs are usually never allowed off lead at all, yet can be perfectly well exercised safely.

>As a bitch owner I feel it my obligation to not only keep my bitches safe, but not to cause undue stress or inconvenience to other dogs and their owners.

That's basic good manners, which sometimes seem quite rare. Having had entire dogs and entire bitches I know both sides.

> As a bitch owner I feel it my obligation to not only keep my bitches safe, but not to cause undue stress or inconvenience to other dogs and their owners.<br />

Good for you :) As somebody who keeps my dog leashed 365 days of the year as courtesy to others (so the look of him loose doesn't frighten people), I really appreciate other people being courteous too and I'm sure I'm not alone in my gratitude to you and other dog owners like you & JG :)