Hi guys,

I had a lady ask me today if she could take her puppy tomorrow (at 7 weeks) instead of next saturday and i said i wasn't too happy in letting her go before 8 weeks to be honest as she was going on holiday the week after collecting her (although her mum will be having her for that period) and she was scared she wouldn't bond with her!

I told her it would probably be more confusing for puppy than good. There one week gone the next then back!
Surely it would be better for the puppt to get collected from her mum and be there when she gets back from hols??

Or am i being selfish?!

Depends on breed. Unless a toy, 7 weeks is fine. But I'd ask her to wait until after her holiday!

I'd be more inclined to keep the pup until 9 weeks so that she goes straight from you to the new owner, rather than have a week with the new owner then a week with someone else.

I agree with epmp; keep the pup with you till the new owner gets back from holiday and can go straight to the proper new home. Much less stressful for the pup so much better for its health.

normally I'd be fine with mine going at 7 weeks, but due to the holiday I'd want to keep pup until she returned... no problem in bonding as she'd only have pup a week... time for that when she comes home :-)  If near enough I'd say to come over a few times before she goes on holiday to play with pup.

If I were your new owner and you said you wanted to keep pup till 9wks, I would go elsewhere and get a pup from another breeder who would let me bring the pup home at 7wks - because this is the optimal time to bring a puppy home.

Research shows that puppies going to new homes under 8wks develop fewer behavioural problems than puppies going to new homes at 8wks and above. 

I'd consider it to be extra-good for socialisation purposes, for the pup to experience a different home environment by way of the mother's house - there are bound to be objects, sights, sounds and smells which are unique to the mother's house, effectively doubling the puppy's early socialisation experiences through early exposure to 2 different homes. 

Puppies are not human babies and their attachment to humans at this age has a plasticity to it; meaning they readily adapt to a change of care-giver and it is not going to be disruptive for a puppy to have a different human caregiver after a week.

Research shows that puppies going to new homes under 8wks develop fewer behavioural problems than puppies going to new homes at 8wks and above. 

Think that old LP has got a scratch.

Each to their own. 
I would hang on to the pup while she was on holiday too.  Although I have no problems letting mine go at 7 weeks too, I would just rather she didn't have the holiday to disrupt the routine.

Research shows that puppies going to new homes under 8wks develop fewer behavioural problems than puppies going to new homes at 8wks and above.


I agree a cracked record, but research only shows this, of course, if the pups come from puppy farms or byb who don't let mum be with pups when she wants and where they're not socialised... no problems if you buy from a reputable breeder...

personally I'd ask you to go to another breeder ;-)

>If I were your new owner and you said you wanted to keep pup till 9wks, I would go elsewhere and get a pup from another breeder who would let me bring the pup home at 7wks

If you were my potential owner I would encourage you to do that too. If you didn't trust me enough to look after the puppy properly you wouldn't be the sort of buyer I'd want.

Oh for a "like" button, JG :)

Does your new owner live close by?  Is it possible to compromise? 

Perhaps the puppy could just come back to you for the holiday week, rather than going to her mums?

LIKE from me to JG too. :)

I also would never use a trainer who had such prejudices.

>I agree a cracked record, but research only shows this, of course, if the pups come from puppy farms or byb who don't let mum be with pups when she wants and where they're not socialised... no problems if you buy from a reputable breeder...

Actually, no:  Research shows this is the case irrespective of where the puppies have come from, and when BYBs and puppy farmers have been removed from the study.

It's very sad to me, to find a whole enclave of breeders who can't accept that some of their much-defended practices are essentially completely at odds with what is considered to be best practice.  And then to find the way they support each other and reassure each other that 'their way is the best way', frequently ganging up on anyone (whatever the topic) who suggests anything other than what they decide is the way things should be done.  (Here, for example, is the latest in a long line of 'ganging up':  http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/136904.html  Someone who did everything their vet had recommended, somehow still comes in for a bashing.  Let's just bash everyone who's an outsider, shall we?  Let's have the assumption that everyone who isn't 'one of us' is wrong if they say anything different to us.  How refreshing.)

I'm sure such enclaves have existed in all walks of life - after all, plenty people insisted the world was flat long after it was found to be round, and there are still people who believe that we have never landed on the moon.  The difference is that those beliefs do no one else any harm.  Whereas giving out misinformation is actually causing harm to puppies, and leaving people struggling with socialisation problems they need never have had. 

I have just walked past a chihuahua, which barked aggressively at another dog which was passing it.  I stopped and chatted to the owner, who told me the dog had come from a reputable breeder who raised the litter indoors - and no, they were not kept in cages - but only allowed the puppy to go to the new home at 14wks.  He tried to take it to a puppy class, but it hid under the chair at the very first outing to a class.  14wks, as we SHOULD all know from much, much, research, is too late.  I commiserated the owner and moved away just as the dog again started to bark aggressively because another dog passed by.  Who loses here?  Not the breeders, but the owners and the puppies. 

And, I'd like to add, I have many, many puppies at class like this.  I do all I can for them, but at 14 wks, I know they will very rarely recover if they present in this way.  A 9 or 10 wk puppy, even behaving similarly in the first session, will show dramatic and huge improvements by the second session.  Simply and only because that puppy is younger and more adaptable. 

But, hey, what do I know?  I've only taught hundreds of pups over many years.  Nothing, I guess.

interesting how you like to come and 'bash' people who've very successfully bred and reared pups and they've gone on to be wonderfully adjusted dogs...  no wonder people who've done this don't agree with everything you say!

my own pups usually leave here at 7 weeks, I have had pups back after a week to help with holidays, I've kept pups for a few weeks also to help with holidays - because I've felt they were good homes.  I'm getting a pup back in for a couple of weeks whilst his folks go on holiday - he's now 14months old and it'll be lovely having him back.

all my pups leave here well adjusted and socialised, I do my best to help them continue to be just that - as the best breeders (many of whom are on here).  You will find that those who aren't well adjusted and socialised actually aren't reputable breeders, but just breeders - unfortunately they appear in all walks of life.

I suggest you stop bashing responsible people and then they may not completely disagree with what you're writing - which to be honest isn't about 'reputable' breeders at all.  Your research is certainly not 'irrespective of where puppies have come from' that fact is actually critical.  You yourself have pointed out 'it doesn't matter where the youngsters are' so it shouldn't make any odds whether they're still with the breeder or in a new home - as long as they're being well socialised.

Research does indicate that pups do best when they stay with mum and siblings and are well socialised, which is why most pups leave home around 7 weeks of age.  Pups who aren't being well socialised are best off in a home where they are well socialised.  Many 'breeders' don't socialise and let their pups leave early and sell them to people who haven't a clue - so the pups don't have a good start or continuation or any form of socialisation.  Don't try and blame reputable breeders for this.

> Research shows that puppies going to new homes under 8wks develop fewer behavioural problems than puppies going to new homes at 8wks and above.

The puppy I picked up at 7 weeks had more behavioural issues than the one I picked up at 12 weeks, both came from the same breeder so this isn't always true

it can be the breeding of course, I've had two collies from the same person, both at 7 weeks and both totally different, the second is the half neice of the first and both brought up pretty much the same way, but with different dogs in the pedigree its interesting how differently they have grown up.  I certainly don't blame the breeder nor actually myself, but I love both of them :-)  The mix in the second dog is something I wouldn't want to add to, but she's produced fantastic children, is an excellent mother and a lovely dog...

Rabid, I would love to to know what research do you mean, because I can't find any that has actual credibility. Maybe you would be so nice as to point me in the right direction.

>It's very sad to me, to find a whole enclave of breeders who can't accept that some of their much-defended practices are essentially completely at odds with what is considered to be best practice.

They can only go by their own experience. Strange that it's at odds with yours, but hey, that's life.

>I have just walked past a chihuahua, which barked aggressively at another dog which was passing it.  I stopped and chatted to the owner, who told me the dog had come from a reputable breeder who raised the litter indoors - and no, they were not kept in cages - but only allowed the puppy to go to the new home at 14wks.  He tried to take it to a puppy class, but it hid under the chair at the very first outing to a class.  14wks, as we SHOULD all know from much, much, research, is too late.

What were the parents' temperaments like? Or are you assuming they were perfect and the problem behaviour is due solely to the age the pup (who of course showed no problems when the new owners collected it, or they wouldn't have bought it) left the breeder? What was the class like? I've had pups who also hide under the chair at the first class but are taking part happily at the second.

If the second vax was at 12 weeks (as used to be standard and many people recommend now) then 14 weeks was the earliest the pup could go to class anyway.

>Actually, no:  Research shows this is the case irrespective of where the puppies have come from, and when BYBs and puppy farmers have been removed from the study.

Which study?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">If I were your new owner and you said you wanted to keep pup till 9wks, I would go elsewhere and get a pup from another breeder who would let me bring the pup home at 7wks - because this is the optimal time to bring a puppy home.

What a load of old tosh.  I don't let my puppies go until they are 8 weeks old minimum and a nicer natured bunch of dogs you'd be hard to find in the breed.     My last litter really suffered for that, Gelda on 9 CC's & 6 RCC's and Curtis on a couple of reserves, another bitch with working test placings......

Rabid, I don't want to get into an arguement as I actually respect your views on quite a lot of subjects but....2 of the best dogs I have ever owned, which have had the most laid-back temprements, were not taken from the breeder until 13 weeks and 14 weeks respectively.

Now, I am not on the beat you up bandwagon as my pups leave at 7 weeks as I did research a study and they say any time between 7-9 weeks is fine so I figure, why wait.  I like my pups to be settled in their new homes for a few days before getting the first vacs so 7 weeks is perfect as 8 weeks is when they get their vacs.

If the breeder does her job well, and socialises ALL pups, then should it really matter at what age the pup goes to new homes.

My own statistics.. which, to be fair, is all I can go on.. 

pups bought in at 8 weeks,, level headed, very outgoing and sociable to both dogs and humans
2 pups brought in aged 9 weeks, well ahead of their age, one of which quite amazed me with his attitude to life.
1 pups brought in ages 4.5months (seen and chosen at 6 weeks, but kennel cough at other things outwith my control dictated huge delay in collecting) a bossy little beggar, but well adjusted and possibly over friendly with humans, but behaviour otherwise, excellent

THEN... a pup I bred, and kept.. turned out to be the most obnoxious, demonic, manic and many other words spoken under my breath... but.. again.. socialised as any other pup I have kept or bought in. 

his littermates homed between 9 and 14weeks, and all turned out to be fantastic pets ( 2 of the owners have been back for an additional pup since then)

One pup (the manic's son ;-) ) I sold at 5months, partly trained to a gamekeeper.  by the time he was 10months he did the solo and team gundog demonstration at Woodfest.

I have kept a pup for 3 months.. a few for over 2 weeks... and again.. all well adjusted pups

I homed an adult boy just under a year old.. he took his 1st CC a few weeks ago

Or the girl I let go aged 18months.. after humming and hawing about it.. she has now been working as a cadaver dogs for the last 18months after completing her training, and has on occassion worked with the Met. Police ...

So.. if all these theories that pups should be in their new homes by 8 weeks old at the latest.. something has gone wrong with all of the above.. ;-)

So, theories aside.. it seems that those who stay with the breeder (in my case lol) are more likely to have problems than those that go to new homes... regardless of age!

What about breeders who run 2 or 3 pups on for the ring.. and let them go around 8/9/10months.. all well adjusted, well trained dogs?

So, theories aside.. it seems that those who stay with the breeder (in my case lol) are more likely to have problems than those that go to new homes... regardless of age!

This is definitely my own experience. I think it's a case of never taking that step out into the big world on their own. But like you say, even when pups leave very late or as adults, they cope fine -so much is genetics and down to what the breeder does. And the word "breeder" doesn't describe a group of people that all do the same! It says itself that a 12 week old pup from a puppy farmer, reared in small kennels with little human interaction, will be totally different to a 12 week old pup from a proper breeder that has done all they can to socialise.

I am siding with the majority here, would any of us really want a 7 week old pup to be bounced around from home to home, No1 breeder,No2 new owner,No3 owners Mum and No4 back to the owner all before the pup is 10 weeks old, no consistency with training, start to bond and that person disappears, going to be wary of being taken away from the house as to where it was going to be left this time.

Pup won't be vaccinated, if it comes down with something how do you decide where it picked it up from or who to blame.

This pup should stay put till it's new owners return from holiday and only has one home to adjust to and will also have started it's vacs too.

>would any of us really want a 7 week old pup to be bounced around from home to home, No1 breeder,No2 new owner,No3 owners Mum and No4 back to the owner all before the pup is 10 weeks old,

And each move involves a stress to the pup making digestive upsets, and therefore developmental hitches, more likely. Not a sensible idea at all.

John Rogerson, one of the top behaviourists in this country, says that it can be a very valuable tool in socialisation for a pup to spend a week or so with several different families/people as they get exposure to more things than they would ordinarily do if they were with just one owner. For example, there are no children (or visiting children)/young adults in my family so for my puppy to spend a week with two or three other families could be very helpful. It all depends, like everything else, on who has them and how they look after them. If the mother were a responsible, doggy person, I would have no problems as a breeder with the pup spending a week with her. I would also offer to have the pup back myself, which is what happened with my last litter. The family arranged with me that their girl would come back to me for their holiday (3-4 weeks after they picked up their pup) which had already been booked some time previously.

I have just realised your litter is the one where Mum had mastitis had to stop feeding her pups,, this would be another reason not to put the pups system under any more stress than is needed by bouncing from home to home.

The pups need to catch up on time with Mum for her to teach them good manners they should start at birth but there was a period of absence.

Before this request had you considered letting the pups go so young? At what point in the vetting was the subject of the holiday brought up?

John Rogerson, one of the top behaviourists in this country, says that it can be a very valuable tool in socialisation for a pup to spend a week or so with several different families/people as they get exposure to more things than they would ordinarily do if they were with just one owner.

I've heard of this bloke. How many litters has he bred? Bandying a pup from pillar to post at an early age is a recipe to totally screw it up ... just look at the young pups in rescue centres that have had exactly that happen to them. If a breeder cannot provide young children, etc, etc from within their own family then they should 'hire' them in. That's what I do :-D

I'm glad you've heard of him lol. He and his wife have bred very successful Working Trials dogs (incl WT Champions) so he does know what he is talking about. As I said in my post, a lot depends on WHO the puppy stays with as to how successful this would be. Rescue pups/dogs often come from homes where they shouldn't be allowed to own a goldfish let alone a dog so you can't really compare the two. I made sure that my litter met young children but it wouldn't be possible for everyone. No one is suggesting that breeders do this instead of undertaking their own socialisation but it needn't be the end of the world when the pup has to spend time in more than one household.

> but it wouldn't be possible for everyone

Unless you live on a desert island or very isolated, or are very unsociable yourself getting willing children to visit puppies is not difficult.  If my friend and neighbour didn't have any then I would go door knocking and ask parents to bring their children to meet the pups.

It was of course much easier when I had kids on site.  Years ago I used to take pups into school and give a talk about responsible ownership, and why the kids should not pester the parents for a dog, as they would leave school and so the dog would be the parents dog to care for.

Interestingly in my breed some of the dogs I know bred and owned by signal women in the sticks have absolutely adored children, and probably only met them a few times with puppy owner visits.

Perhaps the whole socialisation being 'all' argument is about making the most of a bad deal because the temperametns of the parents of so many puppies are often not ideal. 

Those dogs I know with little opportunity for socialisation, but excellent temperaments of the parents have made extremely well adjusted dogs despite 6 months solitary confinement in Quarantine, or puppy hood spent in a forest.

I have to go with JG, Brainless and the majority here, but add one or two points.  First of all, the individual breed has to be taken into account - I think that while circumstances may make it OK for larger breeds and those going on to working type disciplines to go at 7 weeks, it is never acceptable for small/toy breeds, 8 weeks has to be the absolute minimum.  Next, it us up to the breeder ot make sure all pups get socialised, regardless of when they leave.  I have often kept pups till 10, 12 weeks, or even more due to either holiday commitments, or even if I run 2 on to make my mind up which to keep.  All pups get socialised as if they were staying here as my own, so the only issue is the "bonding" and in my experience puppies love the hand which feeds and plays with them!

Unlike a lot of show breeders I take my pups to puppy class at the vets as I find it a handy socialisation tool - it is amazing how you can pick out the well bred pups from the byb/puppy farmed ones, just by behaviour .  Even with those who went to a new home early - 6 weeks for a JR xChi, for instance, and the poor puppy spent the whole time hiding behind it's owners handbag, for all 4 weeks of the course.  IT had had not early socialiasation or handling, having grown up in garden shed.

I don't live near family (they're all at least a 13 hour round trip away from me), none of my friends has children (and they are all now a 6 hour round trip away due to us moving here last year) and, not knowing the area at all, I didn't feel it was wise to advertise the fact I had a litter by inviting local children in. Until I know I can trust people, it's not something I am willing to risk my puppies over. My litter were socialised with the children of my hubby's work colleagues who loved to come over and see them but I'm aware I will need to befriend some parents if I were to breed again. Hopefully the families who now come to my dog training club would be happy to help out but it is not always as easy to people think to access kids lol.

I don't have ready access to kids so go and sit on the bench by my local junior school and invite the kids over to meet the pups, having only 3 or 4 pups means I can load them into carrier on my front and walk up to the school or drive up in the car, has worked fine so far for me.

I do this too, as my house is on a primary school route, so at 3.30 lots of parents and children come past. 

Easy enough to have one puppy at a time (they never know it's a different one each time), they just assume it's a new puppy (not a litter).  Though I doubt the kids give it that much thought it was the adults I was thinking of.

Well, you are all welcome to mine.  I have 4 kids of my own and then all of their friends want to visit when the pups are here! Bedlam.  Which is my next point....just because you can socialise them with kids, you still need to be careful.  One over-powering kid or noisy kid can ruin all your hard work so I vet my visitor very well before anyone gets anywhere near the puppies.  And only 2 at a time max!!