After having GSD's for over 40 years males + females,I was suprised to hear a owner say that they were having their 10 months male done .
The reason being that he is running off to hump any dog that he see's.(a training problem ? Keep him on lead when out until his recall is perfected)
Surely that is too young or am I old- fashioned in my thinking,
I have only had any dog done for health reasons ie;lumps on bits ect Or one girly whos dad died with fits .
I thought that they (the dogs ) suffer as they do not mature as normal .
Am I wrong !!!

no you're right, unfortunately vets appear stuck in the groove of 'neuter everything asap' and no one realises the behaviour wont change, health & temperament may well be adversely affected... if only they'd wait for maturity and train the poor pup, neutering may not even be needed :-(

If only people would wait for their dogs to mature they would find there would be no need to even think of it. As far as I concerned bitches from about 5 but dogs only if there is a health reason other wise they are much better left as nature made them.

These days it seems you don't bother training your dogs you have them neutered only to find that in most cases does not work and in other causes problems that were not there in the first place.

I have a 10 month old male and his recall is a bit rubbishy at the minute, too. Instead of taking the 'easy' route (and we all know it won't be easy anyway) I am managing the problem with training, training and more training. He is at the point where I can take him to the local park on his long line and get a reasonable recall around other dogs, so long as his longline is on.

It has taken at least two months to get to this stage, and before the problems his recall was 'perfect'- it is an age thing but cutting an essential body part off is definitely not the answer.

I do wonder if the same owners that have their dogs 'done' because they are a little bit unruly would take the same stance if the doctor suggested castrating their unruly teenage son?

> if the doctor suggested castrating their unruly teenage son?

Or unfaithful husband/wife maybe :) :) :)

Where does the idea/belief come from that neutering transforms a dog - without training -into a biddable well behaved individual?

Unfortunatly it is a Dog Trainer that has encouraged this owner to have her dog done .Not a vet ,but think that the trainer & vet are friends .

Or unfaithful husband/wife maybe  
In the heat of the moment I think their response would actually be the exact same as it is for their dog 'Chop it off... NOW.' LOL

Unfortunatly it is a Dog Trainer that has encouraged this owner to have her dog done .Not a vet ,but think that the trainer & vet are friends .

Unfortunately it seems to be going through at university level, too. I know of loads of animal behaviour students that get taught this sort of thing.

>Where does the idea/belief come from that neutering transforms a dog - without training -into a biddable well behaved individual?

I have no idea, but was shocked to hear someone at the vets say that they had their Dalmatian castrated at 10 months because he was too bouncy!  Sometimes I just despair.

Its such a shame he is a big baby yet,only 10 months old ,In 2 years  time they will want rid of him because he has not matured.

My Aunt & Uncle had their young FCR spayed at 9 months. Their original vet wouldn't do it but a different vet recommended it :( To be fair she does have problems with holding her pee when there is excitement so I think they were hoping it would help with that.

> In 2 years  time they will want rid of him because he has not matured.

One of ours was neutered early as he was cryptorchid - he has remained very much a pup - often think he must have a picture hidden somewhere like Dorian Gray!

>To be fair she does have problems with holding her pee when there is excitement so I think they were hoping it would help with that.

Given that early spaying can be the cause of incontinence, your aunt and uncle were ill advised.  IMO

I agree, but didn't think it my place to really argue with them. I wasn't trying to use that problem as a justification, more as an explanation that they were not doing it as some cure for all behaviour problems, they were doing it under vets advice for incontinence, vs. my idea of waiting until she'd had a season to see if she got more bladder control as a result.

Understand.  :-)

> Unfortunatly it is a Dog Trainer that has encouraged this owner to have her dog done .Not a vet ,but think that the trainer & vet are friends .

Wonderful.  I assume this trainer doesn't understand the implications of having the dog neutered, if this humping behaviour is actually coming out of insecurity/lack of confidence as it often does.  They could be setting this dog up for a whole lot of other problems if it is stemming from that :-(

This trainer has been training GSD's for at least 25 years ,perhaps she should get a refresher course ,get with the updated idea's on training versus neutering at a early age,If I had not been at the club when I heard this conversation I would have told the owner to reconsider her decision  .I wish I had now .It has been worrying me ever since , I feel that the owner has been given the wrong information .

To play devils advocate here...

Is there any research to suggest that castration then reduces testosterone levels which can then help certain behaviors? (dont get me wrong - I am NOT saying a preference one way or another and I am NOT saying people should think this as an alternative to training)

Also, is there research to suggest if we castrate the risk to cancer in the area is decreased?

I know I am not commenting on the age of the dog but simply castration...

>Also, is there research to suggest if we castrate the risk to cancer in the area is decreased?

Obviously if you castrate then the risk of testicular cancer is eliminated entirely - no testicles to get cancer in! However the risk of malignant (as opposed to benign) prostate tumours seems to be increased after castration ...

is there research to suggest if we castrate the risk to cancer in the area is decreased?


Well yes, your can't get cancer in an organ that has been removed, no testis no testicular cancer however there is research that suggests that there is an increased risk of prostate cancer in those dogs who are castrated.

So the answer is if you remove a body part it is no longer likely to get any form of disease but if you remove part of the bodies natural steroids (ie testosterone) you may well encourage unwanted health problems.

So would people agree that (unless serious health or behaviour issues arise) it would be ok to castrate after maturity?

Why would there be a need? It would be 'okay' but shouldn't be a matter of routine.

Basically what I am getting to here is... I have always been led to believe castration was better - reducing health risks and taking away the testosterone which can lead to unwanted behaviour... But where is the research?? Surely somewhere someone has done a study on the pros and cons??

If there are health and behavior benefits then non breeding or showing dogs should be done as a precautionary measure?

>If there are health and behavior benefits then non breeding or showing dogs should be done as a precautionary measure?

With timid dogs, removal of testosterone can cause unwanted behaviour, by making them even more underconfident.

If people don't feel they're responsible enough to keep an entire dog, then castration might be a good idea, regardless of the health implications to the dog.

And the "average" dog? That isn't timid, will not be bred, will not be shown, wanted as a family pet? With no need for testicles should they be castrated?

IMO dogs should not be castrated for any reason other than health and by that I mean directly connected to the testis, people talk as if the only function of the testis is to procreate this is not so they produce hormones required for the well being of the animal and should only be removed if the dogs health requires it just as you may remove a leg to stop gangrene spreading but never in case you might get it.

There are any number of problems associated with having a castrated dog not all dogs are effected but many are so why take the risk just what is the point.

Equally, why should they? They don't need their testicles for reproduction, but they do need their testicles to give off the right pheromones to stop them being picked on. They need their hormones to keep their metabolism at its normal level, to avoid laying down excess fat the way other castrated species do.

> And the "average" dog? That isn't timid, will not be bred, will not be shown, wanted as a family pet? With no need for testicles should they be castrated?

Why do you think it would be a good idea to castrate them?
My dog will NEVER be bred from, he will not be shown, he is just a pet. He also will NOT be castrated (unless required for medical reasons), I will not put my dog through ANY surgery that is of no benefit to him. He is owned & handled responsibly and will never get the chance to sire a litter - why risk an opperation? (any opperation, nomatter how minor has it's risks, and that's not to mention possible behaviour problems arising from the castration)

I have always had my boys castrated on the basis that I am not going to breed or show them and I have always thought that it is unfair to keep them forever with all the hormones and instincts but no outlet.  That said I would wait for maturity before I did it.

I am the same as you having always castrated.

But am always wanting to improve my knowledge and keep up with new research. Where is the research guys??? There has got to be some and is better to listen to that surely?

In my opinion at the moment I would rather put my dog through a 30 min low risk op than cancer etc

Also, I don't want my dog developing behavior issues though the hormones they produce.

Iv read a few articles now saying in the USA they are doing them as young as 12 weeks... Surely there has to be some reason for this? Before anyone says, I'm not saying I would castrate at that age!!!!!

> Iv read a few articles now saying in the USA they are doing them as young as 12 weeks... Surely there has to be some reason for this?

The reason is to tackle the number of unwanted dogs, it has nothing to do with the health & welfare of the dog they castrate.

> Where is the research guys???

"the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more
behavioural problems in neutered dogs and bitches.
Other studies have also shown early neutering to be associated with increased incidence of noise
phobias and undesirable sexual behaviour! "....
"Clinically the arguments for neutering male dogs do not, in my opinion, stack up to much at all and
may it actually be a negative action when looking at their long term health"

This was very easy to find on google and came from here, Neutering, The Pros & Cons, by vet Mark Elliot, it contains links to refernce material and further reading. It also covers the problem of the effects of neuting on growth plate closure amonst other things.

Interesting reading....I shall search for some more too. Thanks

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/neuteringmaledogs

> Surely somewhere someone has done a study on the pros and cons??

Yes they have and on balance males are better left entire from health point of view.
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

> I have always thought that it is unfair to keep them forever with all the hormones and instincts but no outlet.

Most canines even in the wild complete with hormones never get the chance to reproduce due to their social standing.

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html

Most canines even in the wild complete with hormones never get the chance to reproduce due to their social standing.

True, but you will find that when such non-breeding canines live in a pack, their natural sex hormone levels will be surpressed to an extent in non-breeding animals, so the urge isn't there as much. Dogs are not necessarily pack animals (many "wild" village dogs live on their own or in pairs) and even when they are, most domestic dogs these days don't live in packs so these natural lower levels of sex hormones would not kick in as the social structure around other dogs isn't there.

In addition, wolves only come into season once a year, so male wolves only have to be ready during that time. With dogs in our society, there is potential of bitches in season all year around, so male dogs are designed to be ready all the time as well... So there is definitely more potential of sexual frustration in male dogs compared to say male wolves or other wild species.

there are also increased risks for bone cancer from early neutering as well as a range of other problems arising from additional growth if neutered before the growth plates have closed, leading to increased likelihood of arthritis in joints that are put under increased pressure by being at different angles to what nature intended... hormones are needed to create the right body shape in dogs (and other animals, including humans).

there are increased risks of adverse temperament changes too...

I've posted this link before, but worth reading if you haven't seen it as yet...by an american vet and aimed at dogs doing agility, but relevant to all, author has written a number of books on training dogs to jump and seems to know what she's talking about

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html