The scenario: Dog (A/a) is awarded BP and BoB. The (adult) group is won by Dog (B) with dog (C) second, dog (A) third and dog (D) fourth. Am I right in thinking that in the Puppy group, the BP of the breed that was 4th in the adult group (puppy d) should not be placed higher than dog (A); that only puppies (b) and (c) can be placed higher because Dog (A/a) was placed higher than their respective Bests of Breed?

Have I made sense?

Have I made sense?

Think so, are you saying that all are puppies and all won BOB, if so the dog placed first in the adult group is the winner of the puppy group  the rest would not have remained unbeaten so can't compete further. Let me know if that is not what you meant.

No, the only puppy that was both BoB and BP was dog (A/a). All the other breeds had different dogs for BoB and BP.

As the BPs had been beaten by their respective BoB, if dog A/a was placed higher than a BoB it should automatically have been placed higher than the BP of that other breed (because that BP was a 'beaten dog' - beaten by it's BoB)?

Surely a beaten dog can't be placed higher than a dog which beat the one which it was placed under?

Think I have it now, dog A has been in the Adult group and has not been beaten by a puppy so then enters the puppy group where it will compete against puppies it has not met. If that is what you mean then no it must compete again and it is up to the judge, it may have moved well in the adult group and badly in the puppy group or the judge may just hold a different opinion to that of the breed judge.

However if the puppy has won BIS then it is automatic Best Puppy because the best in show is the best in show and can't be beaten.

The puppies in the puppy group have been beaten by the dogs of their breed in the adult group though.

All the other puppies had been beaten by their respective BoB, so surely can't be placed higher than a dog which has itself beaten those BoBs?
BoB (breed D) has beaten BP (breed D), so logically BP (breed D) can't be placed higher than a dog which beat BoB (breed D).

I understand what you are saying now - I do know the scenario of where a puppy won the adult group and automatically was Puppy Group 1 - so I would assume that the only puppies that could beat it are the adults that beat it in the Adult Group?  (Do I make sense now)?

I think ignoring the groups might help!

Dog A beats dog B.
Dog C beats Dog A.
Surely dog B cannot then beat dog C?

Although what you say seems logical I am sure that is not the way it works, unless the puppy is placed BIS & (I think) RBIS it has to compete against the puppies it has not met regardless of how many BOBs it has met and beaten. It is the same as winning under one judge and then with the same dogs but a different judge not being placed.

The judge doing BIS & BPIS will assess the dogs in front of them and have no knowledge of what has gone before so will place as they see fit and if they like a puppy better than puppy A then that is the way they will place them.

Have not looked this up and I am used to running group shows so it is not something I have dealt with but I am 90% sure I am right.

>It is the same as winning under one judge and then with the same dogs but a different judge not being placed.

But this is under the same judge at the same show.

Its quite confusing with all the different input but I'm with Nova.
Puppy groups are judged separately apart from if a puppy was placed 1st or 2nd in the adult group, which then automatically makes them puppy group winner, puppies placed 3rd or 4th doesnt make them automatic puppy group winners.....otherwise your judging like with like & it can depend on the amount of judges for each breed within a group. The group judge may think the the puppy of the bob which was placed 4th might be nicer than the adult??(this is of course if it was a different judge).

Thing is Jean the BOB of breed 1 has not met the BP of breed 2 and it does not matter if the BOB of breed 1 is also a BP it still has not met the BP of breed two.

In groups and BIS also AV and stakes the previous results do not count the only time a result counts is in the BPIS contest where if the BIS or RBIS happen to be a pup then they automatically win BPIS as they can't be beaten having been awarded BIS.

The choice of BIS is from all unbeaten BOB and the choice of BPIS is from all puppies who have competed and remained unbeaten by another puppy. Adults and puppies are treated separately except when the winner or reserve winner happen to win Best in Show or Reserve Best in Show.

Dog A beats dog B.
Dog C beats Dog A.
Surely dog B cannot then beat dog C?

Yes it can, it can even beat A in a different class.

JG, I have on more than one occasion seen a class placed as A,B,C and then the same judge in a later class place the same dogs B,C,A and that is OK the judge can do this is they wish although I hope I never do unless one of the dogs goes lame of gives up showing. Each class is judged as a separate and new contest.

> But this is under the same judge at the same show.

If it's under the same judge then I don't see how that puppy can be placed above puppy A. I think you're right that if puppy A beat dog D, which has in turn of course beaten puppy D, then puppy D cannot the be put above puppy A by the same judge.

edited to say to add to the confusion I'm using the letters from the 1st post :-D

But a judge can deicide to change their mind and place in a different way, it could be because the judge just changes their mind about the perceived merit or because one of the dogs has stopped showing or is showing signs of unsoundness or perhaps is just tired and wants to go home.

(actually only one of the dogs is a puppy that is dog A (I think)
If they were all puppies then b,c,d, would be beaten and could not compete for BPIS or group anyway.