I can't understand the pleasure to be had from going to a show if you are not going to be satisfied with anything less than a first. A friend's dog won a good second in a large class to the CC winner & she still criticised that dog. I would have been thrilled with a second at Crufts. It never did seem to be my lucky show. My best friend's bitch took 3rd in ML, again a large class, and she was thrilled. That's why she's my best friend I guess: we are both pleased with a fair placing, wherever we are in the line-up. Some people just moan all the way home from most shows. Strange pleasure.

nope, i don't get it either, ofc i would love to win but also i'm always chuffed for whoever else wins and always congratulate.

Only done companion shows so far, but to be pulled out for any placing is a great thrill!

I must admit that this is where I find the showing vs working trials mentality so different.

I want to do both but I think I will struggle on the show side as working is about visible ability of the dog and tha handler but showing to me at the moment is never going to be as focused on what you need to do because it dspends on a more random judgement.

I don't understand it myself, getting a placing I'm chuffed with. Saw your friend coming 3rd in her class when I looked over, well done.

Coming 2nd to the CC winner is a bloody good placing, especially in such a large class with wonderful dogs which are stunning!!
You do hear people before hand saying oh you'll get this that and the other placing, win etc and some people believe it. Did this friend have this by any chance? 

I don't know this person personally but I love that dog your friend should be so proud :-)

I didnt get placed myself but made the short cut and I was chuffed with that, lol!!

Occasionally when I genuinely feel the other dog was not as good I will moan a bit to friends, but in general I am happy with a placing. I never mind being beaten by a worthy dog though. I was thrilled last Sunday, not only winning Best AV Toy Veteran, but getting 5th in the breed Open class too, where 7 year old dogs would often be ignored. But I remember getting BIS with Henry at a club show once, the RBIS winner was in a right snit and turned her nose up when offered the trophy, I would have been almost as thrilled with that as BIS. And you hear of people ripping up the RCC and swearing, I would be over the moon!!

> I don't understand it myself, getting a placing I'm chuffed with.

Anyone who has ever shown cats or small animals will understand what the extra thrill is, even in a companion show.

With cats and small animals all the work is done at home (apart from a few breeds that need grooming just beforehand). Then your animals are penned and the rest depends on the stewards handling your animals and the judges on the day. For the most part you are not present when your animals are judged.

Now some may say this prevents 'facey' judging but in truth it doesn't - if you know your varieties/breeds you can yourself look at the entrants in their pens of cages and usually have a shrewd guess at their lines if not their breeders. The judges can also work this out if they wish to, however impartial... certain breeders have certain 'looks' in their lines, and even one particular exhibit can be got to known by judges over time - sound familiar? ;) The only time I could ever judge small animal totally impartially was when I was asked to judge overseas.

I digress... my point was that with most other species, you buff up your entrants as well as you can then you have to leave them... no handling, and no personal connection....

After a lifetime of showing small animals - started when I was 12 - even being in a ring at companion dog show is a new world to me... and because I am physically attached to the exhibit picked out for a place, it takes on a whole new dimension!

It really depends on what you get beaten by -I never mind getting beaten by something better, but when you get beaten by something which has some glaring fault, yes then you do moan. And it so much depends on what you have done in the past. Looking back over the past decade and a bit, at first I was THRILLED to be qualified for Crufts, and didn't mind at all not getting placed. The next year I got a third and told the world! The year after that a first, and then it continued to the top in the breed. Granted my breed does not have large entries, but if I went home now without firsts, I'd not be happy at all and would see it as a wasted day and most likely not show under that judge again. It's too expensive! At Open shows, anything less than a BOB feels like a wasted day -because we have been spoilt with doing well and much as we love the entire show experience with meeting up with friends etc, we do show to win. In my OTHER breed on the other hand any placings still feel worthwhile at any show! It really is down to expectations.

It really depends on what you get beaten by

Also what sort of person you are, surprising as it may seem those in dogs mirror the population in general. We are inclined to think because they are in dogs they will be like minded but they are not, most are but there are always a few that are too selfish to even think about others and they will be the same whatever they do in life.

I hate seeing 2nd, 3rd or 4th place cards discarded, deliberately left behind as a show of how disgusted they were with their placings!!!
I still get a thrill no matter what the placing and hope I always will. :-)
Paula x

And even within the breed - I know with Henry I was disappointed with anything less than BOB at an open show because I knew his quality. But with Ellie I was pleased with any placing. I do keep all the prize cards, but I return any rosettes less than 1st nowadays, I just have so many on the boards at home there's no room for anything less good! But I do it quietly and politely, I don't want them to think I'm miffed at it 'only' being 2nd or 3rd etc. :-)

I have never left a card or rosette at a show anywhere. I think I am on the whole a pretty good looser. After all we only go for the opinion of one person on one day and if I don't agree with it thats my problem not anyone elses. I cannot abide the bitching that goes on with some people and some breeds are worse than others.
Every card we have won is filed away in the dogs folder and the rosettes go on the walls. Red blue, yellow, green whatever.  I hang them on old ties and crowd them in they look lovely. My office is a riot of colour.
Aileen

It is funny what irritates I hate it when the people given 1st and 2nd do not have the courtesy to stand still and wait for every one to get their card.

Every card we have won is filed away in the dogs folder and the rosettes go on the walls. Red blue, yellow, green whatever.  I hang them on old ties and crowd them in they look lovely. My office is a riot of colour.

That also depends on how well you've done -and please don't think this is bragging because I DO have a breed with small entries and I've been lucky to have one very good dog and several pretty good ones too. I only put up major awards like BOB, BIS, BB, RBB, BD , RBD, BV and similar. I still can't find a free spot of wall anymore. I used to frame the Best of Sex /Reserve Best of Sex/BOB cards, now had to limit myself to CC and RCC. So everything else gets stored and open show cards get chucked straight away (as they come with a rosette, I don't see the point of them at all), but I would NEVER dream of not accepting anything on the day with a smile, or not taking it home. That's just rude. I have a box for everything, but for Crufts cards I have a folder where I keep all the cards, even low ones like fourths.

Now cat rosettes are even worse as each cat is always entered in at least 3 classes per show.

Hehe I can't imagine not being elated with ANYTHING. :D

I have a bit of a obsession with rossettes I have hundreds and I'll even have others that they don't want lol now that is sad :-)

same here boody. I love them, and if I get a first and no rosette I go and buy one :) There are times i feel my dog did not get the placing she should have . but I keep all her cards and roseetes and love all of them. After all they are hers that she won fair and square. not mine .And i love the mix of colours on my board :)

"Every card we have won is filed away in the dogs folder and the rosettes go on the walls. Red blue, yellow, green whatever." 

The same here, although ours are displayed where the puppies are raised. I'm just happy to get placed at a show, no matter where in the line up we are.

I did see on Ebay the day after they'd got placed that someone had put their Rosettes and placement cards up for sale. A 1st and a 3rd and that the 1st place one eventually sold for over £50

Thats strange. why would you want to buy a rosette you did not win? and why would you want to sale one you did. very strange

Thats strange. why would you want to buy a rosette you did not win? and why would you want to sale one you did.

Happens every year after Crufts. Often the people have bought a red rosette saying Crufts, not won it, and sell it together with the card, keeping the real rosette.

What got me the most over the years was when a Pedigree BOB bag sold for £125! Really beats me why people want to pretend. (Selling I can understand, we all need money for dog food, vets etc!)

I try my very best to be only positive when making comments about any dog whilst at a show. It's very poor showmanship to moan and bitch about another's dog (or the judge for that matter). It is after all, the judges choice and should really be respected.

I entered my bitch into a breed Championship show last weekend, her first. We had only recently gone back to ringcraft after a break for a few months. Well the large class of 15, I was overjoyed to be placed 1st! I was aware that there would have been many people ringside who have never seen my bitch before, perhaps they may not have agreed with the judges decision, but it was my moment and I can't tell you how happy I was. Thankfully, I only received favourable comments and congratulations, and it's given me the confidence to carry on with her.

She was beaten in the next class, but that bitch went on to be awarded RCC, so couldn't go into the challenge, but to be perfectly honest, I would have found that far too nerve wracking, couldn't really contemplate the thought of possibly getting a CC or RCC, just too much for one day! TBH, just qualifying her for Crufts must be the biggest achievement for me so far. It's been so difficult showing a home bred dog when you're just starting out!

So I'm grateful to the judge that day for liking my girl enough to give her a 1st, despite never having seen her before. Who knows, maybe other judges sitting ringside liked her too... is that just asking too much? Who knows....

At Crufts this year we had a 3rd out of a large entry, My husband was stood ringside and heard a chap moaning about our dog, when i came out of the ring he was the first over to congratulate me....LOL some people are odd.
I am always happy with any placing, and if i'm not then hey ho life goes on and there is always another dog show :)

I find it very sad that some people, who love showing, and who really do live to show, go to shows (including Crufts), get a placing and then come home and say "oh well, everyone knew who was going to get the ticket". 

I just don't understand ....if that really is the case - then why waste the time, money and petrol in going to that show?  We thoroughly enjoyed showing - even though most of the time, we were there just to make up the numbers - Loki got an icecream every time she got placed :D !

We always said that when we started grumbling that "we wuz robbed" we should stop ....but then the dogs stopped enjoying the experience, so that stopped us!

Just re read my message, Sorry what i mean't was....  if we are not placed then hey ho life goes on and there is always another one. I also always congratulate the winners, i have seen some people throw a right strop! i will never get like that.
We enjoy showing, it's a hobby :)

I just don't understand ....if that really is the case - then why waste the time, money and petrol in going to that show?

Because they never REALLY know, so there is always hope. :) A lot of the time I can predict the winners in my breed from looking at the catalogue, but that's because I know what the dogs look like. (However it also means I need to know what type the judge prefers!) And I seldom know in advance who will be entered.

I have heard the saying of "I can tell you who will get the ticket at the next show" so many times, and it's not often come true to be honest. And when it has, it's because they DID have the best dog.

Evening winning a class isn't enough, I've congratulated someone a couple of times for doing well, as in being placed 1st in their class, only to be snubbed and then had a face on, why show if that's not enough?

I've also seen people throw a strop at being placed less than 1st, refusing to handshake with the judge an walking out before cards issued.... Rudeness, utter rudeness!!!

I love it when a dog wins and the owner/handler is genuinely happy about it :-)

I don't take the rosettes home because like you say, there's no free space left to put them. But I pop them back on the secretaries table with a smile saying 'one for you for next time' - after all, they have to pay for these rosettes, and I figure it's a waste for me to take one home just to chuck it in a bag in a cupboard. Often I'm very happy with the placing, but I just can't find room for the rosette.

> I love it when a dog wins and the owner/handler is genuinely happy about it

But presumably hurling oneself at the judge with utter teary delight is a bit much?

OK I won't do that anymore!!!

My youngster had his first adult group placing last week and I could have kissed the judge        ...but resisted :)

.

That's a good point Lucy. :)

Never, a few kisses wouldn't go amiss either ;-)

In my case it's usually the dog trying to bribe the judge by twisting round to lick them while on the table.... :-)

When my first dog qualified for Crufts I did cry, it meant so much and it was a big class with well known dog in it. He had been as a pup but that was through a 'default' qualifier. That year I went with a group of friends and we had nine dogs between us, all were thrown out one by one till there was just my boy to go in. No one expected he would do anything so had wandered off. I didn't expect to get anything, really just being there was a complete thrill as although my second dog had done some winning, he was bought for showing whereas my first was a 'pet'. He was placed 5th in a class of thirteen and to this day it is one of my most treasured memories.

He qualified the following year too (and I was equally surprised) but then a few months before Crufts had to have an op to remove a benign tumour. After that, I was happy simply to be there and KNEW we didn't stand a chance so I enjoyed every minute of his time in the ring as he was also now a veteran. We were placed 4th in a class of 15 and I almost passed out, yes there were tears (!), another very precious memory.

(This was before PDE and the local newspaper did a piece on local winners as did the work staff magazine).

I have those prize cards, photos, rosettes and the ring numbers as well framed on the wall along with his first BOB and Group rosette from an open show. I will never forget those days.

I don't keep all my rosettes, simply haven't got the space now, so I pass on the ones I don't want to keep to PAT dogs who are always very grateful and I like to think someone else will have the same pleasure in winning them as I did.

I have had days when I have thought I would do well and it hasn't happened, in my experience the totally unexpected win brings far more pleasure than expecting to do well.

A friend once said to me "Every dog has his day" and I always try to remember that if I don't think the winner was up to much - people have no doubt thought the same about mine ;-)  but offering congratulations, particuarly to new owners or those that aren't regular winners, means a huge amount. Even those that win all the time feel demoralised if no one bothers to clap or say well done.

I think it's fair to say you should stop showing if you can't lose as well as win :-)

We have people who photograph our breed at Championship shows and post them on a website.

A bit like the oscars, its not always easy to have the 'good loser' face on for the camera :)

I was talking to a chap once at a show about the fact that neither of us had won that day despite travelling a long way and spending a fortune. He said, oh well, I come for the day out so I don't mind. I said, well I come to win so I do mind. If I just wanted a day out I'd go to the seaside!
I feel that if you are competing at anything you should mind if you don't win, otherwise there's no point. On the other hand, even if you moan in private you should be sporting to whoever has beaten you if possible.
I agree with Goldmali that the pleasure you take in your wins and rosettes is relative to the amount of success you have had. You are basically always competing against yourself.
As for rosettes; they do tend to get faded and dusty so I tend to keep certificates forever, but special rosettes for a few years. One rosette I wanted to keep for ever was the final one my champion won on the day I retired her:  Best Veteran in Show at a large champ show. But my ratbag of a puppy jumped up, snatched the rosette and chewed it up! At least she spat out the safety pin!

As the original poster, I have found responses very interesting and revealing. The person I referred to who was not happy with her dog's good second has never won a CC with her dogs and is in fact (though I doubt she thinks so) fairly new to showing. She expects to win. My Bernese in the past won 17 CCs. If I go to a show, I am happy to have a good day out with friends whatever my dog wins (though don't like to be beaten by obvious faults.) I no longer have Bernese. The people in my current (original) breed barely say hallo and I virtually spend a day on my own these days. Not my idea of a good day. I support my best friend with her Bernese and enjoy the friendship to be found around Bernese rings. Perhaps some of you who say you only go to win should be in the position of losing your winning dogs at 5 or 6 years with cancer to put your show wins in perspective. Enjoy your dogs in and out of the ring whilst you have them. Don't get hung up on winning or you will often be discontented.

I very often choose to spend show days flitting about and not settling with any particular group of people as I hate the gossipy nibbling away at others. Show days are a fun day out to me and I hope I accept whatever I get or don't with good grace. What really makes me mad is when you talk to someone about a show where maybe you had a nice place or win and they then proceed to run the judge down and openly condem the placings....condemming you in the process! and often from friend who knows what you won ! How very rude.
Luckily I'm a bit of a mushroom and not in a "Clique" so avoid most of the slagging off that goes on.
I like to think I am trying hard to improve on various points in my breed that are not so good...I know only too well what it is like to loose a dog young and feel it is something in my breed that is pushed under the carpet by a lot of breeders, because you cannot see it..it's not there...
Maybe I am getting it all wrong, who know ?
Sorry rambling now !!
Aileen

Driving 3 hours to a large dirty venue is not just a 'day out' to me.
I know there are loads of people who go to make up the numbers and are delighted to get placed..... but I go to win.

Strangely I find those with the biggest winners are often the best sports, they see if your dog is good competition and understand if they are beaten by it.
Conversely there is a large knot of bitter people whos dogs are not too good ....but ...either someone has put it up and now everyone else is a fool in comparison
or their friends have convinced them that they Do have the best and its all a fix...I dont like those people....... they moan loudest.

I know there are loads of people who go to make up the numbers and are delighted to get placed..... but I go to win.

Of course we all go with the hope of a win or a nice placing but does that mean you cannot accrept your losses in the same way. Even the high flyers who are superb and deserve to win are sometimes not placed. It does not mean they are somehow being overlooked but we are all different, we all read and interpret a standard with slight variations, all judges see things through different eyes, thats what makes dog shows what they are. If the same dog won every time out we would give up. The top handfull of dogs would continue to attend and the rest of us with "good" as opposed to "excellent" dogs would feel it was not worth the effort. Can you imagine a season when the first placed or BOB was the same dog at every show ? Just for instance take any breeds BOB at crufts (March)  if the whole year ran with that same dog getting BOB at every show the attendance numbers would plummet.
Never forget you go for the opinion of one person on one day. Just because your dog was flying on one day and showing his socks off does not mean the next show out he may be fed up and a bit out of sorts, coat not looking its best, favouring a leg which affected a usuallaly floating gait, due in season and not quite top notch. Maybe then a different judge would place him lower down the line or not at all. That is showing for you and in my (All be it unimportant) opinion what makes it fun. You never know what will happen on the day.
There are of course as in any sport/hobby/whatever, days when a dog is given a place it just is not good enough for because the judge is favouring a friend but hey ho we all know it happens and we need to take it into account for future consideration on choosing to enter under that judge. Attitude is all important at a dog show and win or loose it should not affect how we respond to others in our breed,. Manners as they say cost nothing so swallow your pride, shake hands with the winner and chalk it up to "one of those days".
Aileen

> Never forget you go for the opinion of one person on one day. Just because your dog was flying on one day and showing his socks off does not mean the next show out he may be fed up and a bit out of sorts, coat not looking its best, favouring a leg which affected a usuallaly floating gait, due in season and not quite top notch. Maybe then a different judge would place him lower down the line or not at all. That is showing for you and in my (All be it unimportant) opinion what makes it fun. You never know what will happen on the day.>

Having shown dogs for over 40 years none of the above is new to me.

I know very well how to take the rough with the smooth and despite often winning the CC, Im always happy to congratulate a quality dog who has beaten me.

Im just a little beyond the stage of being excited about a vhc in novice behind 4 less than good dogs...... but I always congratulate the winner. :-)

Am i the only one who go's to shows just to be surrounded by dogs ? I want my dog to win but I also want to enjoy a day out with my dog. I may gumble in the car if we dont get placed where I thought we should have, but I still have a great day. and I love to see my friends Win even if I dont. I get the feeling a lot of people are forgetting who wins. It's the dog that wins not you. its your Dogs rosette or cards not yours. and with a lot of people unhappy about some BOB being given, dare I say it, under the table. I would say that I would rather take home a 4th that my dog won fair and square than a first it Didn't. So everything my Dog wins makes me proud. I love being at a dog show and love being around all the dogs and metting my friends and looking at the stalls . For me and my dog shows are a fun day out :)

Im just a little beyond the stage of being excited about a vhc in novice behind 4 less than good dogs...... but I always congratulate the winner

And thats the spirit of the game :-)

I know there are loads of people who go to make up the numbers and are delighted to get placed..... but I go to win.

I'm so glad you and Cobus has said this as I was starting to feel like the odd one out. I am not ashamed of showing to win but it started to seem like I SHOULD be. :)

If the same dog won every time out we would give up.

But you don't have the same dogs at every single show. :)

> i]If the same dog won every time out we would give up.<br />

Pretty obvious but Ive been showing 2 bitches whilst our breed record winning bitch has racked up 30+ CCs ...but Ive still made up both my girls beating her for the CC each time.

When talking about the handful of exceptional dogs then personal preference comes into play. Putting exceptional dogs out of the ring is not 'the dog show lottery'..... it is just a judge showing their lack of knowledge or integrity.

At crufts this year my naughty got the rdcc and my champ got a very respectable 2nd in a very strong od was chuffed with this till a very frightfull woman came over to say my champ was robbed and should of won and as for that pile of crap that got rdcc (handled by my daughter) what a joke, I had to really bite my tongue and tell her I also own the pile of craP. very nearly took the shine of the day however she is known for thinking only her dogs are worthy winners.

Don't show now but still go to show either as a steward or to watch and I still go for the same reason as I always did, to enjoy the company of others and to admire the dogs and see what is doing well and why. When I was showing I loved to win but most of the time I did not mind if I did not providing the dogs that beat me were nice examples (never better than mine of course) but nice never the less.

It now love to see a youngster who I think has promise and watching to see how they mature and how they do as they mature, it gives me as much pleasure seeing that dog win its first CC as it would if I  owned and handed it.

You have most of the same dogs at champ shows, and if like me you can't afford to go more than a couple of hours for an open show, you get a lot of the same ones at open shows too, at least in my breed. And yes, I go hoping to do well, but since I lost Henry I am not lucky enough to have a dog that I expect to win or at least come 2nd with. Only time will tell with Lottie - of course I'd love her to do well, but although I WANT to win, I have to be realistic and if she's not top quality, I can't expect the top award. Not until I can either breed on and improve my stock, or buy in again..... :-)

I hate seeing 2nd, 3rd or 4th place cards discarded, deliberately left behind as a show of how disgusted they were with their placings!!! I still get a thrill no matter what the placing and hope I always will.

I think that just sums it up for me. I only started showing my dog just under 2 years ago pretty much by accident and really hadn't a clue--we went along to the club champ show more for the social side of it, and I was thrilled when he got placed 3rd. It came as a further shock when I was told he'd qualified for Crufts :-).

Now I do know he is a very nice dog and that I am very lucky to have him, but my ambition is to be able to show him off to his best advantage--period. If that means nothing on the day, so be it--I love watching others in our breed do well and gundogs in general, so we always hang on and hope to learn. It's pretty much all that's left of my social life, which is not a complaint, far from it.But on the rare occasion when he's gone BOB (and on one occasion BIS) there is no drug in the world that can beat that high.

I love the whole show scene with its good and bad days and nutty people and dogs. I keep going cos sometimes you have a fab day and its great. I love to be with my dog and talk about dogs all day and come home with a headache and a rosette and sometimes even a CC.
I never get fed up with it and if I lose I can't wait for the next show when I might not. I keep all my catalogues, and sometimes I get them out and look at them and retrace the careers of my beloveds from minor puppy to veteran.
If I won the lottery, the world cruise would have to wait until after the next champ show.(Just a minute- I wouldn't go on a world cruise as I'd have to leave the dogs!)
Me a fanatic? Never!
And I'd never discard a place card at a show,but I do reserve the right to be a little mardy if I get chucked............. 

> Am i the only one who go's to shows just to be surrounded by dogs ? I want my dog to win but I also want to enjoy a day out with my dog. I may gumble in the car if we dont get placed where I thought we should have, but I still have a great day. and I love to see my friends Win even if I dont. I get the feeling a lot of people are forgetting who wins. It's the dog that wins not you. its your Dogs rosette or cards not yours. and with a lot of people unhappy about some BOB being given, dare I say it, under the table. I would say that I would rather take home a 4th that my dog won fair and square than a first it Didn't. So everything my Dog wins makes me proud. I love being at a dog show and love being around all the dogs and metting my friends and looking at the stalls . For me and my dog shows are a fun day out

Excellent post :-)