I recently bought a pup for my daughter,not to sho just a pet but i made sure the litter was kc reg and parents eye tested.the litter was over 300 miles from my home and when i went to get the pup i was told papers would be posted out to me.It wasnt until i was half way home that i realised that there werent any copies of eye test results in the puppy pack.when i got home i emailed them and was told they would be sent with papers.That was nearly 5 weeks ago so i emailed again ( couldnt get an answer by phone) and was told you will get them so i called the kc and they said they had nothing on record at all for that particular litter.I then sent an email saying if papers or a refund wasnt in post within a week id be taking legal action and within minutes i got a phonecall.....a really nasty one saying that he had been in contact with kc today and that it was all getting sorted( calling me all sorts and swearing),i thought it was strange because id been told for weeks that they ere waiting for the kc to send the papers to them.I called kc back and as expected he hadnt contacted them at all.Im now worried that they will set up any old papers just to shut me up so i sent an email saying that i will have the papers checked( can that be done?) but i wouldnt know what to look for,they have several dogs so would it be easy for them just to register a fake litter? these people run what looks like a lovely boarding kennels but ive realised not to let looks fool you! Any advice on what to do next will be appreciated.I have kept all emails as proof and have also copy and pasted their advert and their stud advert too.Thanks

oh dear, the best thing is to contact the local (to them) tradings standards people.  You should also tell the KC.  You may be able to force them to give you the papers (if they can register the pup) or give you some money back.

When I bought my first pup (second dog) I did like you did and trusted the breeder and didn't get my registration.  I heard a bit later that he's been 'done' for this many times and in fact the KC banned him for 10years for non registration - of course making it impossible for my dog to be registered.  I didn't pursue a claim and the dog was fantastic, but had to put her on activities register for agility and never found out her 'pedigree' which was a shame.

Do you know the Kennel club registered names of the parents. 

If you do enter the names here: http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

Then when you get the results page on the right are some options, one of which is compare to progeny, and that should tell you how many puppies they have produced and any test results for them.

I don't usually give copies of eye test results to new owners as the results will be on the KC reg certificates of the pups.  The only time I would is if the test was so recent that the KC had not updated their database yet. 

Eye test results can sometimes take a while to be updated as the panelist will have a book of test certificates and often sends them in in batches.

Well i have an update on the situation.I emailed the breeder again asking for papers and saying that i would also have them thoroughly checked by the kc.I recieved a reply  saying that he was going to take ME to court because i was slandering his name and that  he actually had the papers and that because i was taking legal action he has decided im not getting them,he also called me ignorant scottish which i think is disgusting!! I called the kc again and spoke to the same woman who was lovely an so helpful,she checked again and said they had just recieved a litter reg by email but the colour of the mother is not the same as this pups mum,i have an email with attached pics of mum and dad.kc are shocked by this breeders attutude and have advised me to go to trading standards and citizens advice which im going to do.I dont have the names of the parents which is a pity.Can a breeder advertise pups as kc then withold papers?I would never have bought the pup if he had been advertised as not kc reg.

> Can a breeder advertise pups as kc then withold papers?I would never have bought the pup if he had been advertised as not kc reg.

If pups re advertised as KC registered then trading standards can get them for misleading you if they don't give you the papers, as they advertised them as KC reg.

Where did you find this breeder, as it is worth informing the source also?

Might be worth contacting the council where they live to see if they are a registered breeder (breeding commercially), this does not sound like the attitude of a responsible ethical breeder, as such breeders feel it important to have a good relationship with their puppy buyers do they get to add them to their extended family and entrust them with their beloved puppies.

I'm sorry but I just don't get why people keep collecting pups without papers, the breeder would have to be my best friend for me to do that, why do people keep doing it and find out they have been stung afterwards?

There may be the odd legitimate reason but they are few and far between, but come on most breeders have 8 weeks to get those papers, toy breeds 12 weeks. No excuse and personally I would not collect a pup without them.

The fact that a litter is now being registered and the dam is a different colour well, what more proof do you need?

Trading standards immediately along with all corroborated evidence to the KC and small claims court from there on in.

People, you just have to get smarter it's no good after the horse has bolted................ just think before you buy.

Sounds like this breeder has something to hide and is hoping if he fobs you off enough you will go away. Yes alarm bells would be ringing for me too if the colour of the parents in the pics does not match the colour of the registered parents, I would be asking him to clarify why this was the case.

Did you get to meet either in the flesh, some colours/patterns can only produce certain colours/patterns, so is it possible for your pup to be produced from the parents in the pics or the ones on the registration details?

Hope you get things sorted soon as it is upsetting your enjoyment of your pup.

It has only taken me 4 days from on-line registration to certificates and pedigrees delivered to me. I don't see what their problem is. Sorry, but there has to be something wrong.

Carrington,i do feel a bit of a fool now so i understand what you are saying,i have really learnt my lesson.The only pups i have bought in the past are for showing and the experience has been lovely.I was told they would be ready when i went to collect pup but was told on arrival they hadnt turned up yet so i had the choice of returning over 300 miles empty handed or take him without papers.No matter what the circumstances are in the future i will never do it again.Can they actually keep the papers after advertising the pup as kc reg?

Why do people some how accept lower standards/research less when purchasing for a Pet, which surely is the most important task for any dog.

I'd want to know the names of the parents of a puppy I was buying, I would have been reserching the pedigree for the weeks while I waited to pick the pup up. 

Surely even without the KC papers ready you should have had a pedigree ready if not then it takes 5 minutes to print one off, what about a contract of sale etc.

Health test certificates would certainly be at the breeders, hopefully in a folder but easily accessible to show buyers.

Certainly they can be done for false advertising if you can find the advert, but a contract makes yoru case much stronger.

i went to collect pup but was told on arrival they hadnt turned up yet so i had the choice of returning over 300 miles empty handed or take him without papers. No matter what the circumstances in the future i will never do it again.

It's what they bank on Kenzi unfortunately, your left in that horrible situation and I agree you do have to learn to go through that once bitten twice shy scenario.

My own brother once went to collect a 12 week old pup advertised for re-homing, (this is years ago when the internet first started with photo's of pups etc, when you believed everything you saw) the KC papers were fine they were all there, the pup was in a house not a puppy farm, but when he went to pick it up the pup was so thin you could see it's bones, not like the photo at all, he had travelled for 3 hours to get to the house and he also took this pup. He was too embarrassed to say no and also too embarrassed to tell his wife what he had done, guess who he travelled over to with this pup?................ Yep me! (Big sis will sort it out :-D)

I actually cried when I saw that pup, wept like a baby it was in such a state, never seen anything so horrible, my brother got not two barrels but twenty, couldn't understand what was in his head to have collected this pup, he had seen enough pups and dogs in our family to know what was what. I contacted the breeder through the papers and they didn't seem to care much either.

I ended up nursing it back to health and found it a good home, not a good interpretation of the breed but it was a nice enough dog.

So yes, even those who should know better get suckered in I know, but people must get tougher and just walk away, it's the only way to stop it, especially as it is so widespread today we know there are so many nasty people out there.

And if the pup is advertised with KC papers it must come with it, they cannot withdraw them because you have stood up to them or they don't feel like it anymore, if advertised it must be sold as so.

Brainless believe me i didnt think i was accepting lower standards although i admit to doing far more reasearch for my show dogs,i asked about a million questions and idnt jump in to this even though this pup is just a pet but these people are clever and arrington says sometimes you have tp learn by your mistakes and this unfortunately was mine.Now i need to know where i stand legally.

As has been said puppies come under the sale of goods act same as anything else and if not as advertised then they can be done.

Trading standards is the way to go as well as informing the Council that issues them their breeding license, if they are registered (considered commercial) breeders.

It is important that you have copies of advertising correspondence etc.

I'd also pursue things with the KC if the parents are not as on paperwork.

I actually didn't have KC papers when i left with my pup back in May 2010, the reason for that was because the KC kept refusing the puppies kennel names i got the my papers 5wks later, the breeder kept me in the loop all the time.
Must say there are honest breeders around and i was lucky.
Good luck and hope you get things sorted.

Nessa 

If he is churning out puppies then perhaps a call to the tax office might be an idea.

Kenzi, if the breeder was listed with Champdogs, could I ask you to email us the details please: admin@champdogs.co.uk

Im not sure if they are listed with champdogs but i will check it out.I just recieved another abusive email this morning,here is the first part that i copy and pasted( i definately would know how to spell liar!!)

.....Who-ever you spoke to at the kennel club, obviously meant the paperwork had not been finalized and should have explained, that paperwork processing can take weeks, and dosent go on their system until finalized, the application was sent weeks ago!, anyway you called me a lyre!,

Im assuming this is a load of rubbish?Im not a breeder so i know nothing about registering puppies etc,any help and advice appreciated before i seek legal advice next week.Thanks

Here is your best bet for legal advice regarding dogs: http://www.doglaw.co.uk/

When you register a litter of puppies, it usually takes about a week to receive the certificates, and the details will be on the KC computer (and in the breeder's online account) BEFORE you have the paperwork.  Eye test results can take much longer to go online, and only breeds that have it as a requirement are published online and printed on registration certificates. My Papillons for instance are eye tested but the results do not go on the KC website.

We are now questioning whether this pup is a pure bred pup after a visit to the vet.Is there a dna test available that can determine this?I know there is meant to be a test for cross bred pup but if i know the breed can a test verify this?

not reliably, the only reliable test is parentage (saying that sire and that dam made this pup)

I think this would explain why the breeder has registered a litter with the wrong colour of mum( the real one probably doesnt have papers).

I was hoping you were going to say the papers had arrived.

This is going from bad to worse, I hadn't realised he had more than one breed on the premises, makes you wonder if he really knows what he is doing. I can understand not getting the sire right if another dog has helped himself but you should know which bitches belly the pups you are selling have come out of surely.

This is the second thread I've read this evening where someone has believed they are buying from a good breeder, only to find out afterwards that this isn't necessarily the case. It's interesting that even people with experience such as yourself kenzi, can be taken in so what chance does a complete novice have of spotting the rogues?

If breeders mention their years of experience and have a polished and sound looking website and seem to tick the right boxes, it can be very difficult to judge. :-(

I hope everything works out for you.