Hi everyone,

This is in relation to my post in rainbow bridge of my darling Alfie who died very sudden.

i am torturing myself with all the what if's and could i of, should i of, did he suffer?

i would be greatful for anyones experience of such a shock and if you did an autopsy (i couldnt bring myself to mess about with him) i know it wont change anything but it may help me come to terms with it to talk about it with anyone else who understands the shock and the guilt involved in losing them this way. i have lost many dogs in the last couple of years (most of you have listened to me many times before bless you) and can cope with grief but this is so different to anything else i have ever been through

without an autopsy and the fact he ate his dinner and was his normal bouncy self minutes before my vet has said likely heart related and that he doubts he would of really known about it (please please god)

Thanks for listening x

Mandy, I can't post my experiences with dogs passing suddenly as it has never happened that way for me ever.  Every dog I have had has suffered somewhat at the end of their lives.  Do you know how much I envy you and Alfies passing? I would love to have had a great day with my dog and then for him to pass so suddenly.  I understand he was still quite young but oh so very happy by the sounds of things.  He'll be at that bridge with a soppy big grin on his face!!  I would stop being so hard on yourself.  I remeber someone on here posting about throwing a stick for thier dog while out a walk and by the time the dog came back with the stick, he just dropped down dead at her feet.  She was devastated but I couldn't imagine anyway better to lose my beloved dog. Much better than months of vet visits and suffering or mind willing but body weak some of our dogs go through at the end.
It's hard to let go but I really don't think he suffered at all and will probably not have known if you had been there or not.
I hope you take my words as I intended.  You were very lucky to know him and not have to see him suffer.

We had a moggy cat who died so suddenly that I found him half-way along the fence on the lawn.  His heart had literally stopped as he walked along and he just fell and died before he landed(vet said).  I didn't bother with messing with him either.  It's not going to bring them back. 

Sending cyber hugs your way(((())))

Hi,

We lost our young dog in October last year, just before her 3rd birthday. I needed to pop out so left her for no more than an hour in the front room with all the other dogs as normal. When I got home I found her in the utility room on the floor with her head trapped in a food bag. She had run out of air. She had opened the door (which we knew she could do) The food bag had been on a windowsill about 6 ft in the air but she had jumped onto the worktop got the bag down and begun eating.

She was rushed to the vets but it was already too late. She had been spayed only 9 days before and was due to have her stitches out the following day. I always believe from finding her that she had got her head trapped in the bag, hubby believes jumping up had caused a problem from her op and she had a heart attack or something similar but we chose not to have an autopsy so we will never know.

I feel guilty every day for what happened to her, we should have put a lock on the door, the food should have been somewhere else, I should never have gone out, a million things could have prevented what happened as it was such a waste of a life and I would do absolutely anything to bring her back but I know I can't. It has been 4 months now and while it does get easier I will never not feel guilty and the what if's are still there. The only thing to come of it for us was to ensure it could never happen again. (The door to our food room is padlocked shut at all times except dinner time and no dogs are allowed in there)

The not knowing is the hardest part but I'm sure whatever did happen to him was very quick and I doubt there was much you could have done.

Hope that helps a little,

Kate x

Hi Mandy, a couple of yrs ago I lost my old girl. She had been fine in the morning,had a little plod round the field then back home for her breakfast. I went out to do my lunch calls, came back and she came for a fuss as usual, I put the kettle on turned around and she was dead on the floor in front of me. I just could not believe how fast I lost her. She had not been ill,she was bright as a button,tail wagging,happy and gone in a flash so I know how hard it must be for you. I went over it again and again, had I missed something? was she ill and I had not noticed?, But really I knew I had not missed anything,I had not let her down,it was just her time to leave. I felt robbed,not being able to hold her and tell her how I loved her and would miss her upset me more than a lot of people will ever know. All I can say to you is it will get easier. The shock will subside slowly and one day you find yourself smiling when Alfie pops into your thoughts. Like you I was absolutely devastated,I could not believe my beautiful old girl was gone, but gone she was and the only thing that got me through it was the knowledge that because of the speed in which she died she did not feel any pain.

I don't have a personal experience with dogs but wanted to comment a little on whether to do a PM or not. I know of two dogs in my breed that died suddenly -one like your Alfie, very similar in fact, another was ill for just a week with a bit of a stomach upset, vet couldn't find anything wrong. The first didn't have a PM done and he was the sire of a few litters (including one I had) -it would have helped other owners (and breeders) to find out what had happened. The second was the litter mate of one of mine and she did have a PM done. I was totally freaked out when I first heard, as were the owners of some of the other littermates. We all imagined our dogs dying as suddenly. When we fund out it was a freak occurrence, I can't remember the exact details now but  organs inside her had got trapped and cut off blood supply, could never have been detected, could not have been prevented, will probably not happen again in a million years -after hearing that the owner, the breeder, and those of us with littermates all felt better, because we knew what had caused it. The owner didn't need to feel guilty because nothing more could have been done. Now when this happened (it's recent) I thought to myself that's what I would have to do if anything similar happened to one of mine -and then I tried to put myself in that situation. INSTANTLY my instinct was to think "no way, I couldn't do it!!!" -no matter what my brain tells me. So I can appreciate it it is easy to say that a PM should be carried out but not so easy to actually go through with it.

I might have been an unusual child, but I remember back when I was just 13, and my second ever pet, a guinea pig, died -I just found her dead. I found it very hard to cope with but my first instinct was to call my dad at work and beg him to take her for a PM. When the results came back showing a heart attack due to a degenerative heart problem it was a relief.

Kate I would bet the bag was the culprit as well, not the spaying and jumping up -and I can't think of anyone who wouldn't have believed the bag put so high up out of the way would not have been safe. Freak accident and not your fault at all.

I've only once had a pm done - 12 years ago on a year old collie bitch we had rescued and who died suddenly the day after going to the vet because she was a bit off her food (tho could be tempted with salmon etc) and just lethargic at odd times in the days leading up to the vet visit. The vet who examined her was very unconcerned, said it was probably a tummy bug, gave her a jab and said come back next week if she hasn't perked up. She died 36 hours later in the wee small hours of the morning, at the side of my bed. I woke just as she had gone and was so devastated. We had a pm done which revealed a closed pyometra which had gone into septicemia and gone round the body due to a small perforation in her uterus (think I have remembered this correctly). The vet said we were very unlucky but I have been paranoid about closed pyos ever since. The biggest clue, in hindsight, was that she was also drinking more and her breath smelt fishy.

Last year I lost my beloved big blue merle rescue collie to prostate cancer - he was gone just 2 days after being diagnosed. I felt (and still do) so robbed but had to make that decision because he wasn't going to get better and he gave me 'the look'. The shock is very hard to take and it must be so much worse for you because your dog was younger and you didn't have an inkling what was going to happen. I am so sorry for you and understand how you just keep running it through your head and trying to make sense of it. Yes, it was probably very quick, but it still seems so unfair. Hugs to you hun, dog ownership brings some very dark days but it's the price we pay for all their love and companionship. xxxx

Mandy I am so terribly sorry you lost your boy in such circumstances. I wonder have you any offspring from him? If you have, then yes a pm might be a benefit to you. But if not, it doesnt matter. I would rather you mourn the loss of your great boy and know that he wasa happy and much loved dog whose time here was far too short.

I've lost two suddenly - but in both cases I knew what was wrong.  I wish I could say they didn't suffer but they did in different ways - the first was my old family dog, a spaniel mix who had osteosarcoma but we didn't know.  The first and only sign of it was her leg just snapping as she walked through the house - she was a plump 15yr old so treatment of any kind simply wasn't an option for her, never mind the serious treatment that OS needs.

The other was my dobe Soli who I lost in October - she had DCM.  She wasn't in heart failure, still occult, but she died of sudden death - fine one second and the next, she was collapsing and gone.  It wasn't peaceful, she cried and she was very scared, but it was quick and I was there holding her as she went - far, far better than the alternative of a slow, painful, uncomfortable end full of checkups and tests and treatments that would have stressed her no end (and again, I'd already decided that she would be PTS almost as soon as she went into heart failure to spare her all that).

If I lose another suddenly without knowing why, I think I would have a PM - I would want to know what happened, and whether there was anything to learn for my other dogs (e.g. symptoms I may have missed).

I lost my Henry quite suddenly 2 years ago. He had had a heart murmur for 3 years, it worsened a little in March 2010 and he was put on heart tablets. 3 months later he was a bit breathless Thursday evening, didn't want breakfast on Friday. I rang the vets and made an appointment for lunchtime thinking he might need a stronger dose. He was still jumping on the back of the sofa, and racing up the stairs to say good morning just as usual, he was in no distress, just a bit out of breath. I came home at 1pm to take him to his appointment and he was dead in the garden. No sign of any struggling or convulsions, he was just lying in a patch of sunlight near my favourite rose. He had bled in his mouth a little, perhaps he bit his tongue? I didn't have a pm done, never even thought of it actually. I suspect it was a heart attack and he would have just been walking around and keeled over instantly dead, I hope so. I will always regret he died alone and that I didn't get the chance to kiss him and say goodbye. I will always regret that I had to work that morning and couldn't take up the offer of a 9.50am appointment. But I guess he wouldn't have lasted much longer if it was that bad, and the following week we would have been on holiday and it would have been awful for the dogsitter. :-(

So many sad posts,
(((((((((hugs)))))))))) to everyone who has loved and lost a special friend.

Oh Mandy! so so sorry, You have had so many loses to cope with but they will be there waiting for you, one day. I truly believe this. Run free Alfie xxx

I've lost two, both with regrets. It's human nature to think that if thing's were done differently, circumstances were different, all the what if's etc, outcomes would be different. Sometimes it's true but not always. You could believe that length of life  is already written at birth!

My heart boy, Louis - my soulmate, my one in a million, my love. No death has ever touched me so deeply, as his. I can fully relate to dying of a broken heart, to curling up and wishing my life would end. He was well in himself, but we had him booked in at the vet for brachycephalic syndrome ( he had occasional symptoms )  and soft palate surgery, nares etc if necessary. I kissed him on the head, my last words to him were be a good boy. The vet called my husband to say they'd found him dead when they went to prep him. He took all the joy in my heart when he left us. We didn't PM, he was gone and nothing would bring him back - we just brought him home, to love him, to hold him, to say our goodbyes - we let Pierre sniff him and lick him, to show him that Louis was gone - they'd been together for 4 weeks. Louis' fur was wet with our tears by the time the lady came to take him to the crematorium. I wish I had stayed with him at the vet - I wish my daughter had turned up to look after Pierre so I could stay at the vet - I wish we hadn't booked that date - I wish he was still alive. He was 22 months old,

My poor poor Pierre - Less than a year later, he too was gone. No illness, no symptoms, being his usual mountain goat, boisterous self the evening before. Woke in the morning to find him shivering, not wanting to eat. Vet appt at 8.30 am, treated for a temp and given AB's. Back at 1.00, kept in and xrayed without sedation he was so ill. They saw a mass on one lung so thought pneumonia and tried to find a specialist to take him. By the time we got him to the specialist, he was bleeding from the nose. They worked on him but eventually came to tell us we should think about letting him go - he had lungworm and was now bleeding from the gums and his lungs were full of blood - he was drowning. I didn't know what do do, phoned his breeder who I had phoned throughout the day, shock. He fell asleep with us crying, holding him and telling him how much we loved him, asking for forgiveness. He was only 14 months old. No PM, we knew how, why he died. I wish we hadn't missed 1 months Advocate treatment - he would still be here. I wish we hadn't been so caught up in finding a puppy playmate for him ( we'd had Eve for 1 week) I wish that his breeder ( even in her pain) had continued her friendship with me as losing her, hurts too.

I will carry the pain of losing my baby boys, for ever - they introduced and cemented my love for their breed. I have my Eve and Taffy and I cherish each day they stay xxx

I lost my very best friend Dexter (Labrador) aged 6 whilst under GA removing a broken tooth. It was a complere shock. I couldn't do an autopsy, I just couldn't think of him getting cut up! It feels totally irrational now, and there's a part of me that really wonders what was wrong (vet thinks it was probably a brain tumour because of some other nagging symptoms), but I don't think I could have got through those first few excruciating days if he'd had one.  I try to look on it philosophically, assuming there was something wrong, this way he was 'himself' till the end and I never had to make that awful decision for him. Not sure I'll ever really get over it though, 18 months on and I still cry for him every day.

I'm sorry, this all sounds very depressing, just wanted to post because I can understand how you feel. I'm sorry for your loss :-(

I lost my very first collie 25 years ago under anaesthetic. He was in for what should have been a straightforward procedure - removal of a blood blister on his ear - but the vet rang to say that he had passed away under the anaesthetic. What made it worse was that he didn't say that straight away but told me how they'd tried to revive him, he'd come round, then they lost him again. A complete shock as he was only 6 years old. I didn't ask for a pm at the time - far too shocked and not even aware of the possibility of doing \ pm - but I would definitely do so now.

I lost a beloved bitch following minor surgery. We had a PM done (the vet wanted to do one because he was upset as well) but all it showed was that she'd gone into organ failure, which we knew from her symptoms, but it didn't tell us why it had happened. Postmortems are generally inconclusive - they can rule things out but only rarely point to a definite reason for death, and can leave you more confused than before.

Back in Nov my Lois aged 6.5yrs died over night in bed with me, she was being treated for an upper respiratory tract infection which she had recovered from in the past no bother, I was still awake at 5am and must have dozed off and woke suddenly at 8am and she was gone, still cuddled up to me under the duvet.

To say it was a shock is an understatement, I too rejected a PM as it wouldn't bring her back.

I totally understand your upset and guilt.

Thanks for posting that Jeangenie. My vet had said the same thing, but in one of my grief phases a part of me wondered if she was just saying that because she'd done something wrong and didn't want to get found out (ridiculous really because she is a very good friend and I trust her completely). For me, it was important he was cremated as he was (again, irrational!) and it would have been worse than not knowing, to go against that feeling and have a PM that was inconclusive.

I'm sorry you lost your girl like that too :-(

Thanks Jan, This is the main reason i opted not to do one as the thought of him being cut about and to find out nothing would not of made me feel any better at all.
The thing i am finding hardest at the moment is not being with him so not knowing if it was quick and painless or if he laid there in pain or frightened.

My new torment for myself is after feeding just before i came inside  one of the dogs had a 'backward sneeze' episode about 4 snorts, i stopped and looked over to my kennel block which is to the right hand side of the house and then it stopped and all seemed fine (my rotts do this on the odd occassion) Thats who was in them kennels. Alfie and amber were in their own kennel the completely other side of the house to the left. at the time i was satisfied all was fine and thats when i went indoors.
Since finding Alfie later that evening my mind is racing now thinking what if that noise was him, is it just a coincidence, is it only because of what has happened that i am now second guessing where that noise came from or did i miss that the noise was from the other side and that was alfies last moment and i could of helped him. Just torment.
I always take my losses very hard (like us all on here) but this is making me ill, havent eaten a dinner for a week now and last night i managed a few hrs sleep but i have bitten all the inside of my mouth i assume with the anxiety.
These are the times when i wonder why i set myself up for all this heartbreak by having so many babies.
So sorry you lost your girl the way you did too x

If it's any help, I don't think the snorting sounds like it came from Alfie and even if it had it's not usually a life-thereatening thing so why would you have been overly concerned about it? I'm sure if he hadn't been well at that time, and was able/wanted to, he would have let you know he was in distress. Trouble is, though, most dogs are tough as boots and don't want to show any pain (my friend says it's because any sign of weakness in the wild would have spelt curtains for them). That's what makes it more shocking when we do lose them as we're just not expecting it. An hour before the vet came to put my blue merle boy down, he was doing all his usual obedience things in the lounge while we waited for the vet - the only difference you can see is that he was ever so slightly slower to sit (because of the prostate cancer). If you hadn't known about it, you probably wouldn't even have noticed it but I knew and I knew the reason why, bless him. He lived to work and that was the last thing we could do together, having been training partners for 9 years.

it is coming up 8yrs since I lost a dog suddenly, I feel guilt everytime I think of him. guilt because I should have been there for him at the end. crying as I write this, i stiil see his face when I left him at the vets. one good thing that has come out of it is that I never leave my dogs now. when they have to have an op I stay till they go under and wait outsdide till I know they have come through. my vets are ver good about this.

>My new torment for myself

I know that so well. It took me ages to deal with the guilt of my girl's death. Now I accept that I did what I thought was best for her at the time (as I did with my Harry, and am still torturing myself with that), and that's all any of us can do.

>These are the times when i wonder why i set myself up for all this heartbreak by having so many babies.

And yet we do. Over and over.

It only hurts so much because we loved them so much, and loving can never be wrong.

So sorry to read your sad story MandyC,
I lost my Alfi five years ago at only 18 months old, one Thursday evening he started to vomit and had an upset tummy but still seemed fine and playful, the following morning he had gotten worse (lethargic) so I called the vet. The vet advised that they had had a lot of dogs in with a bug and to keep giving him fluids but no food for 24 hours and to bring him in on Tuesday if he was no better (it was a bank holiday weekend) I wasn't 100% happy but trusted the vets advice . By Sunday he was worse, I had to spoon feed him water, he had difficulty getting on and off the couch so we called the emergency vet and took him in. He never recovered and I've never forgiven myself.  What if I had just taken him in on the Friday? or even the Saturday?
We chose not to have a PM because he was only a baby and I didn't want him messed with either. Vet said it was probably kidney failure But we will never know why. I still cry when I talk about what happened to him, probably always will.
Paula xxx

> These are the times when i wonder why i set myself up for all this heartbreak by having so many babies.

I wonder this a lot too - losing Soli was just horrendous, so unbelievably painful and I know I'll be going through that again another 8 times... and then however many more dogs I have over my lifetime.  I know I'll probably be going through it again very soon with Tia,and it's upsetting me just thinking about it even though I've only had her a year.

JG has it spot on I think.

Thanks for sharing your stories, and i am sorry to all of you who have been through the torment and confusion from such sudden losses.

killickchick how sad that both were sudden and both so young and how sad that your breeder never kept the friendship.

its 2 weeks on today and though i am no longer uncontrollable in my grief i am still tearful and very sad and shocked at losing Alfie so quick without any warning. His ashes are back home and i think that has helped me a little but i hope and pray that i never experience another loss with such a shock.

Thanks to everyone for their kinds words x