Does anyone have knowledge or experience of this?

The rescue I'm involved with has just received one of these dogs via a third party (vet) who stated that the previous owner claimed the dog was 'wonderfully bred' and trained to the 'highest standard' but wouldn't reveal the 'attack' word in case it 'fell into the wrong hands'(!).  He was 'surrendering' the dog because a major accident necessitated the amputation of a leg.

I'm sorry there are so many quotation marks in this tale but the whole thing strikes me as dodgy from start to finish.

Any thoughts?

(So far it seems a pleasant animal.)

It's certainly true that some ex-trained protection dogs do end up in retirement homes. I have met a few ex Police GSDs for instance.

A year ago I took on an older rescue dog who has almost certainly lived a 'working' life in that sphere in the past. Apart from a few issues with her adapting to living in a home - although I think she may have lived indoors before, but mostly forgotten it - I haven't had serious issues regarding her past life. If anything she seems socially inept, but friendly towards all people, and the worst problem we have had so far is her prey drive meaning she is totally not trustworthy around any livestock or cats. I have done a few little experiments and I am 99.9% sure she has been sleeve trained, but she will come off at the first firm word, and indeed, flinch - as if expecting a punishment like an electric shock. Getting her off a tug toy is impossible though!

Unless the dog has been owned by a truly irresponsible person that raised it to be aggressive, then any ex working dog must be taken on its own merits, and that includes the fact that any services/forces/military/security personnel train very highly for good socialisation to human beings FIRST and FOREMOST. Being good with other dogs is also important but not in all cases, as many dogs work alone with just the handler. Mine is at a loss among other dogs, and only seems to respond to entire males but I have no idea what isolation she may have had in the past... she may have been kept as a brood bitch, which would explain her delight in meeting full males, and her disdain for neuters!

If you are experienced with reactive dogs, and can cope with them [meaning, you have developed a kind of ESP, and lightning reactions, lol] then I don't see a problem with taking on this one. But please feel free to fill me in with more details either on here or by PM, I won't judge.

Just to clarify is this an ex-police dog, ex-security dog or a dog that a layperson has just trained?

That would make all the difference to me, so find that out first. :-)

Re: The attack word, if it is a word that is not in the ordinary dictionary of words we use fine, but if it is and is said accidently you do need to know what it is so that you can quickly use the command to counter the attack.

You would need to know how this dog has been trained.

ive always believed when a ex working dog that has been taught to bite should never be rehomed with people that know the command to bite but should no the word that will stop the bite therefore if he does fall in the wrong hands less chance of a serious bite occuring but if he does fall in the wrong hand its will be easy to teach to bite with a different command as it already has the inhibition to bite.

The rescue I'm involved with has just received one of these dogs via a third party (vet) who stated that the previous owner claimed the dog was 'wonderfully bred' and trained to the 'highest standard' but wouldn't reveal the 'attack' word in case it 'fell into the wrong hands'(!).  He was 'surrendering' the dog because a major accident necessitated the amputation of a leg.

Something doesn't ring true here because security dogs are generally NOT trained in protection work, it's all about looking the part and barking on command -not doing police work. Your average security company would not even be allowed to train one of their dogs to do police work, they need a special license for that. (That is what I was told about the security firm that has two dogs I bred, as they have the license to train police dogs too.) And a well traiend police dog, well they should be as safe around toddlers as around their handlers.

Of course, there are a LOT of unsavoury characters out there training working Malinois and GSD and crosses between the two in protection work, then trying to sell them for ridiculous figures to anyone who will pay -many thousand pounds, you can even spot them on epupz -which certainly isn't a site somebody professional wanting a dog for security work would normally go to! There was even a puppy farm breeding these dogs that's recently been shut down and successfully prosecuted by the RSPCA -there are currently over 100 Malis and Mali crosses with the RSPCA looking for working homes.......

> there are currently over 100 Malis and Mali crosses with the RSPCA looking for working homes.......

I do hope that the Police/Prison services etc have been invited/given the opportunity to assess theri suitability and might take some :(

> There was even a puppy farm breeding these dogs that's recently been shut down and successfully prosecuted by the RSPCA -there are currently over 100 Malis and Mali crosses with the RSPCA looking for working homes.......

Surely Malis bred by a puppy farmer won't have been socialised? or had any training? and if the RSPCA have had them in kennels  for months pending prosecution I would have thought it highley unlikely that they would be mentally sound enough to be used as working dogs?
That does sound like a nightmare situation to me.

I do hope that the Police/Prison services etc have been invited/given the opportunity to assess theri suitability and might take some :-(

Yes, as far as I know so far only 2 or 3 have been suitable...

Surely Malis bred by a puppy farmer won't have been socialised? or had any training? and if the RSPCA have had them in kennels  for months pending prosecution I would have thought it highley unlikely that they would be mentally sound enough to be used as working dogs?

Spot on. Some were 12 weeks old when seized, some were born at the RSPCA from pregnant bitches. They will only home them to working homes (they count agility homes etc as working apparently) and well, I can't see it happening. :(

I think this sounds all too risky for the general public. 
If a body, that can be fully relied upon, such as the police or services, are not interested in such a potentially dangerous dog then it should be put to sleep. 
If anything happened the people passing it on are just as responsible for whatever occurs.

If a body, that can be fully relied upon, such as the police or services, are not interested in such a potentially dangerous dog then it should be put to sleep. 

Well on the one hand, this is why breed rescue cannot/will not get involved -other than giving advice. On the other hand, just because a dog is too nervous to be a police dog doesn't mean it can't in the right hands make a great agility dog for instance. Each dog would have to be assessed individually. As you know I have a bitch deemed too nervous to be a police dog and she's not nervous at all -I don't know WHAT they found in her that was considered nervous, maybe it was hitting with sticks around her (have not tried that) or shots fired very close, who knows. Personally I don't think there is any chance whatsoever for all these dogs finding homes (let's face it, the number is very close to the TOTAL number of registrations in the breed for an entire year!) -but there may be suitable homes for some at least. But it would take a special person to give it a go -in my experience a lot of people who actively compete in sports like agility and similar will not consider anything but a young pup.

The vast majority of dogs which are trained to in protection, whether for work or play, are perfectly safe around people and dogs as dogs with a poor temperament are not really suitable for this activity.

In addition to this, it is not the command alone which cues a dog to bite, there are environmental cues such as preliminary command (eg  if you do not come out I will send the dog) plus the presence of sleeves and/or a bite suit.  Without either of these it is doubtful if any dog will detain anyone.

As Goldmali said, most security dogs are all mouth and no trousers, they are generally on a lead and look scary raving at the end of the lead.  (of course some security dogs ARE deployed where necessary).

Not all such dogs are reactive either.

A dog that has been trained to bite is not intrinsically dangerous in fact if you think about it 99.99% of all dogs which bite (inappropriately) have never been formally trained to do so.

Many "failed police dogs" fail on issues other than biting. Eg cannot cope with slippery floors, stress in kennels and/or travelling, the list is almost endless.

Also you have to take the account of the dog with a pinch of salt................  Many dogs are "bigged up" by their owners/handlers when the dog at the end of the lead does not match up to their fantasy.....................

So I cannot see that having such a dog in rescue is any more risky than any other dog that you do NOT know the background of.

> On the other hand, just because a dog is too nervous to be a police dog doesn't mean it can't in the right hands make a great agility dog for instance

Yes  it is possible but even an agility dog needs a sound temperament especially if the owner wants to compete. A dog that is nervous will often not run as well in competition as it does in familiar surroundings. dogs need to be reasonably ok with other dogs as agility dogs need to be off the lead to train or compete. A dog that is poorly socialised  with other dogs can be aggressive with other dogs. It may well be caused by fear but not many people will want an agility dog which is not reliable around other dogs.
It will take a special handler to put the time and effort into training an agility dog and overcoming the other problems the dogs might have. I doubt there are that many dog owners capable for the task who would want to take one of these pups on. I hope the person responsible for these poor dogs was suitably punished and banned from keeping dog again.

As I understood the OP they do not know who has trained the dog or how.

> some were born at the RSPCA from pregnant bitches.

Well I sure hope they socialised these properly, if they could not they should have been PTS at birth, to concentrate resources on the others.

Thanks to all that replied. 

Just to be clear: I don't know if the dog is dodgy but the info surrounding it definitely was. 

When I got a look at the paperwork it was a lot of pseudo-professional hyperbole (spelled 'cr*p') of the sort that Max and Paddy would produce for their guard dog. And what reputable security firm would give up a dog with such an (allegedly) exceptional pedigree, temperament and skill set? Utter bozwellox.

On the plus side the dog seems lovely, well socialised and responsive so who knows?

Thanks again.

Hi Muttsinbrum
i have sent you a private message can you reply to me asap
thanks karen