Have got some mince to try out - my info says for a collie 20-25kg (my collie is 16kg) feed 2 cupfuls of mince one meal and the second meal 1 chicken wing and a raw egg.  Well I usually on feed once a day.  For another day it says 1 chicken wing in the morning and 3 in the evening.  That doesn't sound very much?  

This raw food calculator is an excellent place to start.  How old is she?  If she is an active adult try her on 3% to start and adjust up or down to suit her.  I have two 30kg dogs on 3.5% (gundogs) and an older slightly less active 16kg mongrel on 2.5%

My 16kg dog will eat 2 wings per meal or, preferably, 1 wing and one drumstick...  My big boys will eat a turkey drumstick!

I rarely feed just wings - they are too bony and cause one of mine to get very constipated.  I tend to give them as well as mince and simply adjust portion sizes - they get wings whilst I weigh up!  Eggs have to mixed in with mince or my boys think I've put something in their bowls by mistake and I get 'looks' :)  One of mine will take an in-shell egg outside but he nurses it whole (for ages) and doesn't eat it unless he drops it by mistake...

> One of mine will take an in-shell egg outside but he nurses it whole (for ages) and doesn't eat it unless he drops it by mistake...

LOL - I have to crack the egg a little (enough for the white to run out a bit) for my older dog otherwise he takes it from his bowl to his bed and cracks it there :)

The calculator is good - thanks.  I gave Meg an egg the other day with her dry food just to see what she would make of it.  She ended up carrying it upstairs before she broke it.   I wondered whether I should put one with her mince. So I just add the weight of the egg on?  Seemed odd just giving her mince only. I kept feeling that she should have biscuit with it. 

That doesn't sound very much? 
I too have a collie, and for quite a few years fed her on senior light JWB as she had onset arthritis/limping much more so after a run and she hated a walk without her beloved tennis ball! She also had spay incontinence and would leak everywhere and wouldn't know she had done it. I got her as a rescue about nine years ago now and i was told she was 18 mths when i got her so she must be knocking on 11 years.
When i put her JWB senior light i must say it did help her a bit and she lost a little bit of weight but due to a multitude of reasons i switched to raw for all of my dogs. Using the calculator i measured out how much mince she should be on per day and i was horrified! It looked like a paltry amount. I checked and checked again and kept coming back with the same answer. Nearly ten months have passed since my collie has been raw fed and all of her ailments have gone away. No more limping or leaking urine. Her coat is beautiful and glossy. She is like a puppy again.
The raw meat that is fed is in it's natural concentrated form and the dog will make use of most if it, if not all of it hence why a raw fed dogs poo is much smaller than a complete biscuit fed dog. I also use oils high in omega, keepers mix, garlic powder and minced veg from my allotment. They also get fed oily fish like mackerel and organ meat. 
Once a month i weigh all the dogs and write it down just to keep track of things. I jump on the bathroom scales make a note of my weight then holding one of my dogs jump on the scales again and subtract the two weights. Its not 100% accurate but it gives me a good idea to know that all is well.
If you are at all worried i would weigh your dog to start with and write down the date and maybe weigh weekly until you feel sure you are on the right track.

> So I just add the weight of the egg on?

I don't bother - just sling one in (shell an all - crushed ish) when I remember.  They probably get 2 a month...  I don't find eggs necessary but if have some and they eat them, why not!

You will find if you persevere with raw food, that some dogs make the most of it. It depends on activity levels and the dog's own metabolism.

My BSD/WSD cross is such a "good doer" as the old saying goes - I call him economical to run! - he needs only 8oz raw mince plus a chicken neck or two, and a good handful or more of blitzed veg per day (and a raw carrot for dessert and a tripe stick for fun). The strange part is, this doesn't change whether he is getting more exercise or not - he will be slightly leaner if he's more active, but in less active times he stays constant on this without gaining much weight. He is 26kg.

I think we have also found the level constant for my rescue Malinois - at first she needed a full pack of mince per day (454g/1lb) plus veg & chews, but as she is settling more and not pacing constantly she is needing less, and she's at the stage now where less is more. I think she may need some fish oil supplements in view of her age and to get her coat more shiny; apart from that she is in lovely shape. She was 23kg at the last weigh.

zebedee,thanks for the ideas,i think id better start weighing my dogs and their food,why i never thouught of doing it on a regular basis,i dont know.I have been a tad worried as my eldest and the pup,6months,both feel a bit podgy,the middle one is like a bag of bones,and no,the others dont pinch her food and she eats plenty!
Im so glad raw food helped your little collie.

Hi. I am switching to raw aswell :) I just need to sort out an extra freezer and keep buying some from the pet shop first to make sure she actually takes to it and does not go off it, as she usually does. So far she has taken to everything I have tried her on :) Time to switch as I noticed her going fussy over the weinwrights which she has been happy on for ages, but i have noticed lately that she is loseing her healthy glossy soft coat that she has always had :( But I never thought about giving her eggs. I thought raw eggs were bad and the shell was dangerous to eat. I take it this is not the case? And should I try her on one. Shall I crack it out of the shell and just feed the egg, or give her the whole thing and stop being such a wimp? haha

> needs only 8oz raw mince

Oh! The caluculator said that at 16kg Meg would need 480g per day?  The info I have said that I need only feed a 'green' meal a couple of times a week - fruit or veggie - one from above ground, one from under.  As for supplements - are they from pet suppliers?  Meg was fine from eating her mince yesterday - I warned my husband to take extra poo bags out this morning just incase.  She has a cast iron stomach though - eats all sorts of rubbish when she is out.  I was sort of hoping that feeding her raw diet may decrease the need for eating cat, fox poo etc.  Oh are the veggies cooked or raw?

I am not sure I would attempt a change without being able to ask advice on here - thanks for everyone who has contributed.

> Oh are the veggies cooked or raw

Raw and preferably blitzed in a blender, although a whole carrot, for example, can also be given as a treat- but I give my dogs any leftover veggies as well :) They are always hovering as I prepare our vegetables and get some of the discarded leaves from sprouts etc after I've finished :)

> And should I try her on one. Shall I crack it out of the shell and just feed the egg, or give her the whole thing and stop being such a wimp

Crack one into her bowl and put the shell in as well (just as it comes, don't crush it) - see what she does :) If you don't crack it she may not realise that it is for eating :) :)

Meg has eaten very carefully around anything green in her dish in the past - just like a child!  They were cooked veggies though.

grrrrrr !!! Well she loved the egg, appsolutly adored it (not the shell just the yoke), only thing is now she is refusing to eat her dinner, just keeps waiting hopefully for another egg grrrr this dog is so demanding and high maintainence haha

> Well she loved the egg, appsolutly adored it (not the shell just the yoke),

Next time try just cracking the shell enough for the white to come out a bit :) It might encourage her to eat a bit of shell :)

only one of mine will eat raw egg,i just leave a couple on the kitchen floor and try not to stand on them!one gets left,and the pup marmalises one,just leaves a few pieces of shell!Its a bit scary at first,feeding raw,and I still have my"my god!has she got a bone stuck!"moments,even after 2 years,but I wouldnt change back now.Good luck with it ceejay.Im like you,so grateful for the advice and encouragement from people on here!

I have three collies and feed the following amounts per day split into two meals:

8 year, 16.5kg doesn't do agility - 300g
9 year old, 18kg competes in agility - 325g
4 year old, 15kg competes in agility - 305g

The two that compete have their amounts upped slightly during the competition season.

When i add the veg to their bowls i mix it in well with the meat and oils, i don't think they can tell the difference as the bowls are always licked clean.
About twice a month I blitz, mince or grate veg and put it in ice cube trays and freeze it. Silicone trays work best and are dead easy to push out once frozen. Then i just bag them all up and freeze until needed.
colliepam - my BC used to be sluggish and on the podgy side. I only wish i had put my squeamishness to one side and fed her raw years ago. Before her raw diet the time was coming for her to go onto meds as i had tried all other avenues to help with her stiffness.
I think if i went back to feeding them complete  biscuits now, they'd all go on strike!

I use american measuring cups to make sure they are all getting the right amount. Stainless steel are the best to keep clean and plastic measuring spoons for their oil and other supplements. I find it quicker to scoop the meat out from the Tupperware container it has been defrosting in using the cups rather than weighing it. I made a wall chart with all the amounts required for each dog in case i ever had a senior moment and forgot!
Have a look at these measuring cups to give you an idea.

http://groceries.asda.com/asda-estore/search/searchcontainer.jsp?trailSize=1&searchString=measuring+spoon&domainName=Products&headerVersion=v1&_requestid=105355

> Oh are the veggies cooked or raw?

I give cooked veg only if I have leftovers but otherwise feed it raw - blitzed in a food processor, or finely grated.  I need to blitz liver for mine too (won't eat it in chunks) so I like to chop them some  vegetables after the liver as it helps to clean the liver out of the food processor and means none goes to waste.  I also often sling bit of fresh garlic in, or juice, as mine like the flavour and it helps reduce the raw liver smell.  I use silicone muffin trays for all my liver and or veg mixes.

I don't actually think that veg is necessary but mine like it and when I have stuff we can't use, or I see it on special offer I'm happy to prep a batch and they always get most of our root veg peelings, except for potato, through the winter. If you have a weight problem stick with green veg not root veg for a while and til you have it under control.  Frozen spinach is a great option too, and very good for your dog.

You should see much less poo with a raw fed dog - half what you get on kibble

I defrost in lidded buckets and weigh mince direct into their stainless steel bowls.  I'm very precise, I think it saves me money to be careful with amounts AND means I can manage the dogs weights (plus or minus) so much more easily

thanks for the ideas zebedee!Which oils do you use,and do you give them every day?I had mine on salmon oil as one seemed to have a dull coat,but its fine now.I think i will def get the measuring cups,easier than using scales,and im going to do a wall chart too.I suspect I am overfeeding two of mine without realising,time I took control.Thankyou,and thankyou for the other great ideas on here too.Dont worry if you get a bit unsure,ceejay,I still am,even though I know raw is best,after two years!Nice to get reassurance from everyone,thanks again!

Colliepam, I'm so glad you started this thread.  I was majorly overfeeding my little ones!!  Got it worked out now but I have an problem....I can't defrost fast enough?  I buy meat from the butcher for my dogs and he gives me it in little packs which is brill but I have frozen some of these packs and over the christmas period, I tried to defrost some for dinner the next night but when I opened it the next night, it was still solid!  Should I make my packages smaller or defrost at room temp?  Where am I going wrong?

Thing I'm missing also is bone.  I use a drawer in my freezer and a veg drawer in my fridge for the dogs so I can't bulk buy but I need to get them to eat more bone(I think).  One of them will eat a knuckle that the butcher gives me no problem but the rest just look at her in horror!!  My old girl just had to have 3 teeth removed because of al the years of complete so I will do anything not to feed her that again but I would love to get her munching bone to clean those back teeth!!

(Sorry to take over the thread)but you have had some great advice here!

> I made a wall chart with all the amounts required for each dog

Wow Zebedee  you are so organised!  I could do with a little of that. 

> 8 year, 16.5kg doesn't do agility - 300g
>

Mine is 7 in May and she isn't doing much training at the moment.  That is useful to know dvnbiker thanks.

I know,actually,I think Ceejay started it and I hijacked(sorry!)but I find anything to do with raw feeding fascinating!Its easier to defrost in summer,obviously,but I tend to have the same problem sometimes,when a bit of orijen kibble,or tinned pilchards fills the gap while i wait for the meat to defrost properly,then make sure I have enough meat out for a couple of days,if theres too much thawed you could always fridge it if theres a chance it may go off. Can you get chicken wings?Im not sure if theyd be enough to clean teeth on their own though,what about trying lamb ribs?
Talking of overfeeding-Ive just weighed my three,using the me first,then me plus dog,on scales so I know its not dead accurate,but my three weigh almost the same,yet Jess looks a bit porky,pup at 7months feels a bit cuddly,and Gwens skinny!Jess(3,in march)weighs 41pounds,boney Gwen,15months weighs39 pounds and 7months River weighs 38! Can someone with normal sized collies please tell me their dogs weight,so I know what Im aiming for?Ive just ordered measuring spoons,now to work out what amounts they should be having!Cheers!

I normally allow around 10 - 12 hours for a 450gram/1lb bag of meat to defrost at room temperature. I get mine out last thing at night and leave it in an old ice cream tub. Otherwise you'll wake up to find your kitchen worktop swimming in blood. Any leftover meat that i haven't served up goes back in the fridge in the container for next time.
Weigh the total amount of food required for your dogs target/ideal weight then if you are going to use the american cup measuring system put the meat into the cups to see which sizes accommodate the meat the best.
My BC was 20kg when i started her on raw in April 2011 and my vet said she was overweight for her height. He said he ideal weight should be around 18kg which is what she is now. She has 1/2 cup of muscle meat 1/4 cup of organ meat, 1  yoghurt cube, 1 vegetable cube, 1/8 teaspoon keepers mix, 1/8 teaspoon garlic powder, 1 teaspoon of oil, a chicken wing, biscuit treats that i make like liver cake or beef jerky.
I don't know which part of her diet that has helped her with her limping and incontinence, all i know is that it works for her and i would gladly pay a lot more for her food than what i do now to keep her in tip top condition and free of pain.
There is a chicken farm near to me and i can get about 250 wings for roughly £18 - £20. As quite a large company they are very accommodating considering i'm not spending mega bucks with them.
The oils i use are organic rapeseed oil or this one...

http://www.goodwebsite.co.uk/Good-Oil-Hemp-Oil.php

I've never tried egg shell in with their meals as they always end up on the compost heap! Will give it a try though! :-)

thanks zebedee,have ordered the measuring spoons from asda with my order on tues,but ive sorted out the amounts they should have,and we start today,(me too incidently,groan)I think Jess should aim for 18kg too.Never thought of hemp oil!thankyou!

Ahhh, I was trying to defrost in the fridge!lol.  No wonder it wasn't defrosting.
I'll need to have a word with the butcher when I'm in and see about extra bone.  He thinks huge knuckle when I'm thinking ribs and backbone!!  Do butchers not use the ribs?  I know mine sells ribs but I don't know what they are off of? Pig or lamb (or both).  I'm so hopeless in the butcher!!haha but at least I'm giving him more business cos I can't recomend his products enough.  I'd rather pay a bit more(or get a bit less) for the quality. And I mean for us as well as the pooches.

hopeless in the butchers?Try being a veggie and steeling yourself!Im worse than hopeless!things we do for our dogs!

Hey, sorry still working out this forum this is a reply to the thread in general though not one comment :)

I was just wondering, i am thinking about switching my dog to Raw for a few weeks to see how she gets on, but i have a few questions. Will start with my 2 main ones just now.

The raw food calculator that you can use to figure out how much to feed - my dog is overweight (24kg) but her ideal weight is 17KG. The vet suggested to loose weight that i should feed her the recommended daily kibble amount based on her ideal weight and not her current weight so she looses weight. With the raw food calculator would i base it on her ideal weight or her with her current weight and select the *fat* option?

Also, would the amount recommended by the calculator be just meat based, or meat & veg based? I have also read now that approximately for every "handful" of raw meat your dog gets, it should get at least 2 handfuls of fruit/veg pulp. Is this true?

Where do most people actually get their raw meaty supplies from & are there any threads where people have posted examples of their dogs daily meals over the course of a week? (Cant find any!)

There is so much conflicting information out there. I might actually post a new thread with my queries as being new to the site i am finding it hard to navigate and find relevant threads. I still have quite a bit of research to do though.

Anyway, hope i have not asked too much! Thanks :)

> The raw food calculator that you can use to figure out how much to feed - my dog is overweight (24kg) but her ideal weight is 17KG. The vet suggested to loose weight that i should feed her the recommended daily kibble amount based on her ideal weight and not her current weight so she looses weight. With the raw food calculator would i base it on her ideal weight or her with her current weight and select the *fat* option?

Hi Jamiioo   Either - they both work out roughly the same.  2% of 24kg is 480g per day and 3% of 17kg is 510g per day.  If you buy pet mince it's usually packed in 1lb blocks so just give her one of these (454g) per day to start with and see how she goes.  She'll need 80% meat 10% offal and 10% bone  - and you can manage this over a week or two, you don't have to do with each meal...

I don't think dogs need veg but I add it sometimes, if I have some spare, because they like it and it does no harm.  This is where you need to do your research though - have a read of the differences between a 'raw meaty bones' diet and 'BARF' and see what you like the sound of and which science appeals to you.  Tom Lonsdale is a good author to start with.

I buy from a company called TPMS and I combine several types of meat with tripe to get a good balance when feeding mince.  I also add poultry portions, necks and wings each week.  Have a search for posts by Tohme - I'm fairly sure she's provided some menus and other raw feeding menus in the past :)

> I don't think dogs need veg but I add it sometimes, if I have some spare, because they like it and it does no harm.

I agree with this, but noticed some very positive effects when I started adding blitzed veg to my dog's diet. He was prone to jelly poo (aka colitis, a minor irritation of the lower bowel) but this stopped with the veg addition. Also if you are trying to get weight off a dog then the veg really helps to fill them up, whilst still providing some essential minerals and vitamins.

Thanks for that - Have just ordered a copy of the raw feeding book you linked so hopefully i should have it by the end of the week. Also going to search for topics by Tohme and see what i come across :)

Hi Jamiioo,
Before i switched full time to raw and before i bought a tonne of meat i wanted to make sure my lot liked it so i went to PAH as they sell free flow minces and 454g/1lb blocks. Some independent high street pet shops also sell similar products. This also helps if freezer space is at a premium for you. Like you i also had problems finding a butcher who would sell off-cuts & scraps. Some meat arrives at the butchers already prepared so there really is no waste available at the shop and other butchers like to stick to legislation! My parents butchers sells pet mince at 30p a 1lb and other butchers will sell it at £1 a 1lb, it varies greatly. You could also contact any abattoirs near to you.
I give my lot veg because.... a) they like it, b) i have surplus from my allotment and, c) it helps even things out with their poo after eating chicken wings.
Raw fish like mackerel is good too. You might find reduced price fish at your supermarket that is sold off towards the end of the day.
Once i started feeding mine on raw food it was about a month before i saw any noticeable changes.
I know the whole raw food thing is a minefield to someone new  as it goes against what we've previously been educated. As long as you wash your hands after handling raw meat and keep work top areas clean there shouldn't be a problem.
You will soon find an arrangement that suits both you and your girl and then you'll look back and wonder why you worried.

Hey thanks for that. Was at P@h today and got a few packets of their frozen raw food - Prize choice i think it is called. So going to see how that pans out over the next few days. Confused about if these minced packets contain all bone/organ/muscle meat and is balanced etc though. Google time! Still waiting on my book too. Once i get that i will probably write down a potential diet plan over a 2 week period and ask if it looks ok on here haha :) x

The amounts suggested by dogs a babe are your start line amounts. You may need to adjust up or down over a period of time according to your dog's individual needs.

I work one of my dogs in agility and he is very active. He weighs 32kg and has 450g of raw feed per day. My  much smaller dog weighs 8kg and he gets around 220g a day - so as you can see the proportion of food to weight of dog is much greater for the smaller dog. Both dogs are  lean - agility can be hard on joints and muscles so they definitely don't need to be carrying any extra weight - but are very fit and active. I was told that when you run your hands over their rib cage it should feel as though they have a blanket covering them - if it feels like a duvet they are overweight and if it feels like a sheet they are underweight. I use this guideline for judging the weight of my dogs and my vet is always really pleased with their weight and level of fitness so that method does seem to work :-)