I have been looking at supportive treatments, herbal, vitamins and diet for my Irish Setter, Joely, and have ordered Salmon oil and Salmon complete dired food for her. I believe she is showing several symptoms of this disease now - and she is taking Vivitonin daily - but I would like to have any advice so I can help her in this progressive disability. Many thanks, Florence 19

Sorry to hear you dog is unwell has she actually had a confirmed diagnosis.

How old is your poor girl?  My GSP first showed signs when he was about 8 but to be honest he probably started dragging his rear feet from about 4 years old.  We didn't even consider DM as he was too young and it's very unusual in this breed.   After diagnosis we gave him vitamins and i made loads of vegetable soups to mix into his dried food.  I don't know if it helped at all but you do everything  you can don't you.  Hydrotherapy was suggested but by the time this happened it was too late for any improvement unfortunately.  Have you had a definite diagnosis?  Sending best wishes to you through this.

Dear Jackie,
Thank you for your concern over Joely. I haven't had a confirmed diagnosis of DM - only that she has a neurological condition, which cannot reverse itself. My search, and Joely's symtoms took me to defining her condition. The Vivitonin is to increase the blood supply to her brain but I am looking vitamin/herbal support to protect the myelin sheath. I did ask the vet if it would create a sudden paralysis, and no - it fits in with a DM prognosis that it would be slowly and seriously debilitating.
Oh dear - it is more worrying for us as our dogs suffer no pain at all in this condition and don't know what's coming. It is for us to take care of as best possible.
Kind regards, gilly

Dear Chrissy,
I am so sorry you have been through this awful disease with your beloved boy. I have not had a confirmed diagnosis. My vet has not suggested the MRI scan - and I have read on DM websites that the only positive diagnosis can be at postmortem. I shan't be doing either investigation and I have read enough about the condition to recognise the symtoms in Joely.
She is 13 in May this year - happy, bright, eating, alert and in no pain. It is the tripping and stumbling - and suddenly her back legs going or even one hip - and her awareness of going upstairs (avoids social trips) but more free coming down although she has fallen a couple of times.
The most important thing is for us to stay relaxed and show no anxiety. I like your idea of lovely soups - and the salmon dried food has good recommendation - so it's all worth trying.
Did you use a harness with your GSP? I am thinking I shall not let Joely go beyond her own ability and trust this will be slow and endurable for her.
Kindest wishes,
gilly (florence 19)

It was the Vivitonin that made me wonder about the diagnosis. If you are right I am sorry there is little you can do but deal with each stage as it happens, I have had a GSD with this condition and as you say it is distressing to deal with.

Hi Gilly

Give the soup a try, I don't know if it helped but at least I felt I was doing something.

We didn't try a harness but i know it helps sometimes.  He used to fall over and looked like he was drunk.  Very sad. We just let him do what he wanted, when he wanted to do it and we knew when he had had enough.  It all happened quite quickly but each dog is different and some cope for years like it.  Unfortunately we had to have our lovely boy PTS and he was just 11 years old.  He was diagnosed by Clare Rusbridge at Stone Lion vets in London.  We live in Brighton and our vet referred us to her as his tests weren't totally conclusive but I think he had an idea what it was.  She was brilliant and sent us some lovely messages when we lost him.  She asked if we would donate some of his tissue to a University in America (think its Minnisota, but not too sure now!) for reseach and to add to their database on this awful disease, which we did so I hope somewhere down the line he is helping other dogs to beat this.

Sorry if i'm waffling!

I do hope you get some help for your girl and that i could be more positive for you.

Sending you my very best wishes.
Chrissy

I know someone who used this harness very successfully to help with their DM dog. It is a very sad disease.  http://www.hartmanharness.com/
Don't know whether it may help you, but it can just help to give them a little lift to help them up rather than struggle and help support when they go to the loo and just steady them when they have a wobble. I like the fact it can be worn most of the time and the rear is detachable.

So sorry you are going through this with your dog.

Dear Chrissy,
Thank you so much for your care about Joely. I am so sorry your beloved dog, and you, had to experience this neurological disease. It always shows when someone has lived through a situation by their compassion, and I thank you for yours. And I do hope that help was given in your generosity of tissue to support dogs in the future. I know it doesn't bring ours back but in my experience of having dogs, they are always with me, despite the physical separation. They are the most honourable friends.
I haven't made soup yet - but I shall. I feel - like you did - that I am doing something with the salmon/omega diet and just that Joely loves it gives me a good feeling.
I notice her back legs - walking happily - are at a sharper angle on the hock. Do I imagine this? She is bright, eating well, developing a few quirky things - eg there are two steps inside the house from the back garden and she can't 'face' them without encouragement. And - she got stuck on the stairs at a friend's house when - unusually she was going upstairs to go to the loo. It was as if she was crossing her legs in desperation not to wee.
This hasn't ever happened - we have a good rapport when she needs to go outside. I am watching everything - she is sleeping at the moment. I don't ever - as you would know - show her my grief of this debilitating disease.
How long did you have to go from first noticing the change in your boy to a PTS? I wish I didn't need to project into the future but it is my nature. I need to know each step so I can support Joely.
With best wishes, and tell me - do you have a dog now?
gilly

Hi china blue,
Your post is interestering - and I thank you. I was talking with a friend the other day who said the GSD used a harness when needed, and I said I didn't think I would take Joely to that stage - my friend said, you may do - as we did - when the time comes, and your dog is happy and needs to go on. I found it helpful to hear from you because I can't, at the moment, face that time.
Joely is my third Irish Setter - spanning a time since 1971 - so records a great deal of my dog history and emotions. And this time is the hardest - it seems - of all. But that is probably just how it feels because I am afraid of the next step for her.
With best wishes, and appreciation for your support.
gilly

Hi Gilly

I always think it helps to talk to someone who has been through the same thing, having someone who understands is always a great help.  From diagnosis to losing our precious boy was less than a year but some dogs do go on for many years and i'm sure the harness helps in lots of cases.  He started off just dragging his back legs, which probably went on for a few years, and then we noticed he was wobbling on his back legs which gradually got worse until he would fall over now and again.  Horrible to witness and probably even worse for the dog as the brain is working ok but the legs not responding.  Wheels for his rear end were suggested but i wasn't going to let him go down that route.  He was such a dignified dog i couldn't do that to him.  We do have another dog, an 11 year old GSP and she has adapted so well to life without him.  We thought she wouldn't cope as they were inseparable but she has been brilliant.  After we had him PTS she was very withdrawn and not interested in anything much until the day we brought his ashes home.  She gave the casket the complete once over and wandered off tail wagging as it to say "he's home now, everything's ok". 

Sorry i can't be more positive for you but please stay in touch even if you just need to talk and let me know how Joely is doing.

Chrissy
x

Dear Chrissy,
I am so glad you have another GSP, and doing well after the loss of the beloved friend. When Joely lost her dachshund sister/companion she licked herself for about 3 months in her sign of grief and then became a truly happy solitary dog with her Siamese housemates, and seemed to enjoy her 'elevated' position as the only dog. She is like your boy, so much dignity and elegance - so I don't think I shall take it to the wheel/harness stage.
Today, herbs arrived from Devon. I have a wonderful herbalist contact who looked after my previous IS and gave her support after vet's advice on  PTS, and the vet was as delighted as we were that Gelsey had another 8 months on her daily herbs. Joely has started tonight, with supper on the herb treatment. She ate it all, which was brilliant as some dogs do need to adapt to the strange smell/taste. I wrap it in Rachels' natural yoghurt to help to disguise the yuk/goodness.
There have been incidents since writing - but I am going forward with a yes, yes, yes, to her - and shall watch carefully behind her view.
Fortunately, it isn't painful for our dear dogs - but for us it is a constant nag of upset.
Chrissy, I shall let you know how it goes. I do appreciate your healing/guidance for me - and I wish you the best with your GSP and good health.
gilly

Hi Gilly

Just a thought, i dont know where you live but we were referred to Claire Rusbridge at Stone Lion vets in London for a diagnosis.  She was absolutely brilliant and if you are near to her it might be worth having a chat and maybe getting a diagnosis for your Joely.  She specialises in diseases such as this and has written many books and papers so is highly qualified to help you.

Good luck with the herbs, i hope they help.  I remember know that our boy used to eat the herbs in the garden so maybe he was helping himself (in both senses!).  He also particularly liked strawberries which he also 'stole' as soon as they turned red.  It wasnt until we saw him do it that we realised where all the fruit had gone.  Maybe he knew they were doing him some good.

Do stay in touch and let me know how things go.

Sending all best wishes.
Chrissy
x

Dear Chrissy,
Thank you for your suggestion re Clare Rusbridge. I live in Bath - so London is easy - but for now I seem to be on a winner with Michael Brookham's herbs. He looked after my previous IS when she had a lung condition. Did I tell you? Gelsey's prognosis was PTS - and after two months of the herbs, my vet, Roger, did another x-ray and amazed by the healing. Gelsey managed another 8 months of good quality life. Michael believes Joely may have longer on his prescription.
It is awesome in that the past few days have shown an improvement. Joely was already on the Salmon diet from Fish4dogs and the salmon oil (10 days) and somebody on Champs recommended this (thank you) ... but Michael said I would see a difference in 2 weeks. Already, Joely has climbed to the top floor of the house (not done for weeks) and on the two steps in from the garden which she couldn't 'face', she came up without help. I am staggered by this change in her. I know she is fragile and needing more support than usual, but such an amazingly uplifting experience. Like Spring arrived - although I know it is more serious, in the long-term, than that.
Michael was one of the founders of the Cancer Centre in Clifton, Bristol. He is 3rd generation herbalist - and supports humans and pets. Anyone needing his support - also get in touch - and I shall forward his information.
Chrissy - you have been my support during one of the bleak periods with Joely - I shall keep you posted - and thank you so much.
With best wishes for you and yours, gilly

Dear Chrissy,

I want to thank you for the recent support you gave me while Joely was ill. And to thank others who responded to my message at the time.
Joely sadly was PTS on Thursday (16th February). It was very quick for her - as she had a failure of the central nervous system and was at home when our lovely vet, Roger, came to assist her passing.
Naturally, I am devastated - and not able to think of anything except how difficult it is for all of us when we lose our beloved companions. Dear Joely was safe in an peaceful dying but I miss her painfully. Bless her and all our beautiful dogs.
Hope all is going well with you and yours.
Florence 19 (gilly)

So sad to read this.RIP Joely

She will be running at the Rainbow Bridge with her health restored to total fitness,you will meet again one day.

So sorry to hear this Gilly :-(

For anyone else reading this post and wondering about a diagnosis there is a simple dna test now for DM. This will tell you if your dog is clear, carrier or affected. Not all affected dogs actually show clinical signs but if your dog is showing signs it would certainly help a diagnosis to know if it had the mutation. If the DNA test doesn't come back as affected you know to look for another cause.

My vet suspected my elderly borzoi has dm, I sent the dna test away and it came back affected so no need for further investigation.

Dear Rhodach,

Thank you for your comforting message. Just knowing that we who share a deep love of dogs can share each other's grief, and offer support in the beautiful way in which you did is so touching.

Best wishes for a long healthy life for yours.

Florence 19 (gilly)

Dear Chaumsong,

I am so sorry to hear the news of your lovely Borzoi - and can only hope she/he is doing well - as Joely did for a while - and shall not suffer in any way.
It is so kind of you to write with advice on the dna test for others. I am wondering now what treatments your vet has recommended.
Take lots of care - and thank you for your kind condolences.

Best wishes,

Florence 19 (gilly)

so, so sorry...

Run free Joely.  xx

Dear Jean,
I always think the greater the love the greater the pain - and so know that how I feel now is in honour to my beautiful girl and the love we shared. A friend sent a card and said '..... neither of you could have trusted and loved the other more.' I think this equals the loss we feel when it is like that for us.
It is a terrible disease for our beloveds - and we have to come to terms with the prognosis, with private tears, before we can show our dogs the total support they need during this illness. Joely did not suffer - and there was no pain - only fear on the day she woke up and couldn't walk - it was over for her within two hours - and meantime, she was able to have a dental chew and her Siamese friends close to her.
I am thankful that I could be there with her and show her our love together.
It is so caring of you to write - I notice you are a veterinary/dog person - and thank you for such kindness.
With best wishes,
Florence19 (gilly)

Gilly I'm so sorry to hear your news.

God bless Joely, safe now. May the shamrocks fall gently upon you.

Dawn R.

Dear Dawn,
Thank you. I remember writing to you when Joely first went to the vet with her condition - and you were so kind.
Irish setters are so truly amazing - as all dogs - but it was so comforting to communicate knowing the breed, even if time had passed since yours.
Joely radiated beauty and a spirtual connection that is wonderful but hard to deal with in losing her.
Yes - she is free of a future with any possible disability within the central nervous system.
I did what I always intended to do, in not letting it go long for her. But there was no decision necessary on Thursday. She simply needed the big rescue.
Thank you for every part of your caring.
Bless you and yours -
gilly

J is this something that is specific to certain breeds then ?

Gilly so sorry but at least now she is at peace and without pain.

> J is this something that is specific to certain breeds then ?

It does seem to be - if you look at the link for the testing. Am I right that this disease was once called CDRM? If so, very common in GSDs... or used to be.

I'm sure the test would be of use with breeds that are known to be badly affected - and especially if you took on a rescue of unknown background. But I wonder if I would be brave enough to do the test on a young dog, and if it comes back as affected, be able to live comfortably knowing the inevitability?

> J is this something that is specific to certain breeds then ?

It is more prevalent in some breeds like GSDs, but almost any breed can suffer from it, it's rare in borzois but they can carry it. To be honest it probably doesn't show up more in zois because they tend not to live that long. My boy who has DM is the oldest borzoi I've owned.

As far as I know the only breed that definitely can never suffer from DM are silken windhounds. When the dna test was developed over 100 of the oldest silkens alive (that had been bred) where tested which covered every line and none of them are even carriers thankfully.

> Am I right that this disease was once called CDRM?

Yes

> I wonder if I would be brave enough to do the test on a young dog, and if it comes back as affected, be able to live comfortably knowing the inevitability?

I don't think there is any benefit in doing that, unless you are going to breed from the dog. It's another test that could/should be considered for breeding stock, especially in breeds where it is a known problem. With my boy it was useful to get the test done to assist in a diagnosis, far cheaper than an MRI scan for sure.

Dear Gilly

I am so sorry, i have only just picked up your post.  I really don't know what to say to you other that i am so so sorry for your loss.  I hope i was of some little help to you and wish i could have done more.

Bless Joely and all the other dear dogs waiting at the Bridge.

My thoughts are with you and if you need to, please get in touch.  I, and many others, know how you are feeling right now.

Best regards
Chrissy

Dear Chrissy,

You were so much there for me when I was troubled with Joely's illness. Fortunately, she had a wonderful two months from Roger's (vet) examination and I felt your comfort with our email talks, herbs and so on. It was at one of my lowest times that you and I were in champdogs communication.
Joely had no real knowledge or pain. I adopted a Dora explorer optimism with her - 'we can do it' when we came in from the garden, or walked upstairs. And she had lovely chicken, herbs, salmon, and salmon oil. She was so happy.
On Thursday (16th) it was very fast - no decision to be made - no pain for her, apart from horrid stress when, for the first time, she knew that all was wrong.
I have had a private cremation for her (as I do for my pets) - and have had wonderful letters, flowers and many tears from those who shared her beauty. But .... it's another long story because I think (maybe) I shall have a new IS puppy who has been in gestation for a long time - in that her reserve had to be cancelled - and now she may come to me. I shall tell you more later. I asked Joely to help me choose another puppy - it may seem very soon but it is not rebound! and the way I usually live with these beloved companions.
I hope all is with well with yours - and I thank you again for your compassion.

I am a hundred years older in grief of my beautiful girl - but I honour her in doing it all again, if possible.

gilly x with love and appreciation of your kindness.

RIP lovely Joely xx

I would just like to add a comment on the dna test for the dm gene. This test does not provide absolute indication as to whether a dog will have this disease or not. A dog that is affected may never develop symptoms. The gene is just one factor in many unknown factors surrounding this disease. Also, things differ from breed to breed so you really are best off following breed club recommendations as to how it should influence breeding plans etc.
Edited to add: also carrier dogs can develop the disease and I believe that clear dogs can also develop the disease. The genes on this test are not the full story. 

> The genes on this test are not the full story

Agreed, it's another thing to consider when breeding though.

> also carrier dogs can develop the disease and I believe that clear dogs can also develop the disease.

Tow alleles are invloved in Degenerative Myelopathy, A and G, therefore a test result can be A/A, A/G, or G/G. G allele is dominante to the A allele. Dogs with A/G or G/G test results are very unlikely to develop the disease. Dogs with A/A test results may or may not develop the disease. In the seven breeds that have been studied (Boxer, Chesapeake Bay Retriever, German Shepherd Dog, Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Rhodesian Ridgeback, and Standard Poodle)All dogs that suffered Degenerative Myelopathy, when tested their test results were A/ A BUT not all dogs with A/A have suffered the disease and some dogs with A/A have only showed symptoms of the disease at an old age, as late as 15 years of age. (copied from Laboklin)

Hi Gilly

I am so pleased to know i was some help to you.  Please stay in touch and let me know if you do get your new puppy.  Everyone is different and we all handle things differently, some people wait and others experience such a void they need a new 'baby' to make them feel complete.  I just know your new puppy will get all the love possible. 

My Echo is doing ok, she has a lump on her back leg.  Our vet doesn't think it's anything nasty but wanted to do a biopsy under general anaesthetic to make sure.  He did say that he didn't think he could remove it as it appears to be 'wrapped' around her leg.  We decided that there was no point in subjecting her to anaesthetic to see what the lump is if the vet couldn't operate to remove it.  She is such a happy dog, i would hate to inflict any pain on her for no positive outcome.

Love to you and Joely.

x

Dear Chrissy,

I was sorry to hear about Echo - and hoping now that you have some more positive information or/and that Echo is happy, pain free and doing well. I apologise for the long time in not replying. The day after Joely died my computer crashed and has been all this time in a repair workshop.
I don't have the new puppy as I wasn't strong enough, and the breeder couldn't be patient with me - and now tells me she is 'sold' although she is still stated as 'available' on the website. I trust that it is not meant to be for now.
Isn't grieving for our beloved pets too terrible. I have felt so unwell - only haven't suffered guilt, thankfully, and deeply comforted that Joely had no pain and that she had a trauma free, happy life.
We've all lost our dearest dogs and can share this with compassion. I like the book 'Farewell my Lovely' which is a compilation of all animal lovers' feelings about theirs - no a sad book but uplifting to read and know there are others who feel like we do.
I do have do Siamese cats (brother and sister) aged 12 - and they are doing well after their own grief.
Please keep in touch Chrissy - and tell me how Echo is getting along. A big hug and pat for him.
And many thanks to you again for your much needed sharing at a most difficult time.
Gilly (Florence 19)

Dear Chrissy,

I have just posted again on Champdogs Information Exchange. I hope Echo is well.
I did get another Irish Setter after Joely died - and sadly she is diagnosed now with liver shunt.
She is due to have the huge and delicate operation on the 29th May - if we get there - she's
been doing well/stable and grown since hospital treatmet and the correct diet and meds -
a gorgeous little person who has been sent to me as her chance of survival. It's all rather
stressful making the right decisions for her - and sometimes I wonder if I should allow her
to avoid all that which is ahead for ....
Anyway - I wanted to let you know after our lovely communications. I did write
on Champs to thank you - Florence (gilly)