Some while ago I determined to try my dog on raw foods after seeing how she enjoyed some raw meat and bone that she was given.  However things cropped up and I was unable to give my mind to changing thins and continued to give my dog Burns dry food.  After consulting a trade stand at a show last Sept. I started using Burns Alert because they told me that the protein content wasn't that much different to ordinary Burns.  However my dog needs calming down - not being made more Alert and I am reflecting on the wisdom of it now and researching raw food again. 

However I will be feeding much more protein and I have been told once that it is really bad for her behaviour.  I have been told several time to give her the cheapest low protein stuff.  I don't want to do this - her weight is very good, her coat is brilliant - I don't want her to start loosing condition. 

Searching on here I don't see any reference to high protein diets and hyper dogs - so is it a myth? 

I would say it is definitely not a myth. Funnily enough I was going to start a topic on this subject.

Too much protein can be directly related to poor behaviour, whilst the raw diet is without doubt an excellent option for many dogs and owners, sometime it can simply be too much protein for some dogs and their lifestyles. If the dog is getting too much protein for the amount of exercise and energy they use they can certainly become hyperactive and appear badly behaved. Protein is the energy source for dogs and if it is not used up by exercise it has to go somewhere and usually results in behaviour that we don't want.

If you are going to feed a lower protein dry food there is no sense in feeding the cheapest, unless it still has a good source of protein, just at a lower amount.

I have seen the evidence in dogs that I train for other people, where the dogs are getting too much input for their output and once the protein levels are dropped slightly they become easier to train and manage without loosing condition.

I think it is very breed dependent, my two collies do very well on a relatively cheap, 23% protein 8% fat, light diet. They also occasionally get raw meat, if I give them too much raw meat it does definitely increase their energy levels - it doesn't make them badly behaved but it does make them more hyper. Same thing if they steal some of the hounds food - (28% protein, 18% fat) - they're pinging around after that. On their normal diet they have glossy soft coats and enough energy to run and play for 90 minutes every day, in the house they are calm and quiet. On a higher protein diet they don't relax as much in the house adn seem to notice every little sound outside.

The hounds on the other hand really need the higher protein and fat content and can eat as much raw meat as they like and are never hyper.

What % protein is she on ATM? A lot of people make the mistake of thinking raw meat is all protein, it really isn't! I believe raw meat is around 20-25 % on average (could be wrong, I'll google it!) as meat is around 70% water and also some fibrous tissue, fat etc. It is however a much better quality protein and more suited to dogs. eg, porridge oats are around 11% protein but it is not an accessible one for dogs. Also a large part of a raw diet will be bone and that has a lower content. I have to say I can't actually find the nutritional content of bones though. Anyone?
My advice would be try it and see! If you don't like it you can always change back. Do change over gradually though to give her digestion time to catch up.

But do remember that you can't make a direct comparison  from dried food protein content to wet food protein content, you have to use the equation to get protein amount in wet food here is an example

Dry Matter Protein Content = (10/25) x 100 = 40%

10 is the protein percentage , 25 is 100 - 75 (75 is the percentage of moisture) then x by 100 and you get an amount that you can compare

The only time I've ever questioned food as a reason for 'hyper' behaviour is once when I allowed the kids to buy a Christmas stocking gift for a young dog.  He ate something very obviously coloured (bright green) and we needed to scrape him off the ceiling ; and then he crashed...

I also met a friends dog once, kibble fed but can't remember the brand, and her dog used to experience something like a sugar rush that you often see in kids.  Repetitive, insistent behaviour for a short while after eating.

I feed raw and aim for 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal.  It's food that really suits most dogs and given that it's very natural too you don't see any of the highs and lows associated with some kibble or processed meals.  I think it improves the overall health and wellbeing of my dogs and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone that is willing to do the research and take the time to learn to do it properly. 

Interestingly kibble does make my dogs sleepy - I think it's partly due to the digestion time, or the feeling of stodge in their guts.  I kept my pup on part kibble and part raw til he was 12 months old as a kibble meal in the evening helped him last through the night and gave us a slightly quieter evening with less of the zoomies!!

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth I've always found this site to be very helpful.

Protein is essential as the building blocks to maintain and repair bodily systems. They do most of the work in cells and are needed for the structure, function and regulation of the bodies tissue and organs. Protein is a poor "fuel " for the canine ( and human ) body compared to carbs, being used only when the body's resource of carbs is low, as carbs are much easier to utilise.

Too much protein can indeed result in " hyper" behaviour in some dogs who are sensitive but not all, the theory that makes most sense to me, is that the amino acids produced by a high level of protein crowd out the amino acid Trytophan which is required to make serotonin. Also there can be other foods which cause the same reaction, corn is one of them, that could also be present in a diet, so even if there is an adverse reaction to a food, it's not necessarily the protein that's to blame.

You can only try a raw diet and see if it's suitable or not, every dog is an individual and one size doesn't fit all. 

Celli, I don't know who is right but Agilabs posted on a different thread an article about how dogs DON'T get their energy from carbs as humans do. I'll dig it out and repost on here.

This was posted by Agilabs on another thread 'Raw feed for high energy dogs'

Dogs get their Energy from fat not Carbs, what kind of meat do you feed atm?
This is hopefully a link to a really interesting article I pinched from another Forum. Well worth a read. I'm not good with links so if this doesn;t work let me know and I'll try again.
This is a short extract from it:
"Continued research showed that dogs actually have a very low requirement for carbohydrate and that; indeed, fat was the preferred fuel for endurance in the performing dog. The question often arises: If carbohydrates help people, why don't they help canine athletes? The reasons are complex and involve differences in gait, cardiovascular physiology and energy metabolism. Dogs and humans just have differences."

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/feeding-the-performance-dog/

PS: Hope you don't mind Agilabs!

It is a bit of a mine field isn't it :-)

This from Myths About Raw

Carbohydrates do provide quick and easy energy. However, it is not 'carbs' that maintain the health of the organs listed in the quotes above, but glucose. Glucose can be obtained from both fat and protein through a process known as gluconeogenesis, where amino acids and fat (not fatty acids; those use a different cycle) are "converted" to glucose. If carbs are present, though, they will be converted to energy first before fat and protein because they are easier to use.

the quotes that are mentioned are from Wendy Volhard and Kerry Brown, the last part of the quote says

With insufficent carbs in the diet, protein and fat are converted to energy, weakening the immune system and preventing the body from building enough antibodies to fight disease. Poor hair growth and constant shedding are symptoms of carbohydrate deficiency.

According to them carbs are used in preference to protein and fat. So yes, protein and fat are used for energy but aren't as easily utilised as carbs, if high protein causes an excess of energy, then why isn't the same reaction seen in a high carb diet when carbs are used in preference to protein and fat ?

I'm not disagreeing that high protein can cause "hyper" behaviour in some dogs, just that it's not because of an excess of energy, but a lack of serotonin.

I think we're probably generally in agreement, just have a difference of opinion as to how it occurs.

ps. both quotes were specific to dogs. 

> "Continued research showed that dogs actually have a very low requirement for carbohydrate

Interesting - I haven't been able to sit and read the articles and take in what everyone has said.  I posted this morning and then got kept away from my computer - too tired now and busy tomorrow with child minding and dog club.  It will be Tuesday before I can address the food thing again. 

Wittering now - what I came back to say was that the other advice commonly given re food and behaviour was to feed rice, pasta - potato - ie carbs, to help calm dogs when fireworks are about!   Another myth! 

I do have a hyper little collie who seems to be more sensitive at the moment.  Just wondered if Burns Alert - was making her too alert!!

Just been looking at the Burns web site.  The protein is 18.5% for both dry foods - they say that Alert is to keep a dog alert for working but to also be able to stay calm and well behaved.  It is advertised as for assistance dogs rather than working dogs.  

Mine is much calmer now he is fed 100% raw. He was on kibble + raw until just under a year ago, but the absence of the kibble has made quite a difference to him since.

I have told this story before.... but when he was totally kibble-fed, I once visited family and ran out of his usual food (CSJ at the time). I bought Burns from the local pet shop, and was amazed to see wild rats snacking on his poo the next day. The carbs in it were obviously not totally utilised, and were excreted, to the delight of the local vermin.

I am very happy to say the small, firm poos he does now on totally raw are easy to pick up, and have no attraction to any other life form apart from the odd fly, which is how it should be!

My other dog is also 100% raw fed and with no issues at all, she is really fit and a delight to the eye. I find it much easier to control weight and condition with raw vs. expenditure of energy: satisfied dog with a full tummy by lowering or increasing the amount of bone or minced raw veg as appropriate.

what I came back to say was that the other advice commonly given re food and behaviour was to feed rice, pasta - potato - ie carbs, to help calm dogs when fireworks are about! 

There is some evidence ( or there was, things may have moved on since I last looked ) to back that one up but there's a bit more to it, which at this time of night/morning I can't remember lol, i think you have to give a B vit too and there was something else about the timing, but that ones down to trytophan again, the combination supposedly aids the production of it... my.brain is fried from playing Plants V Zombies lol. 

>and was amazed to see wild rats snacking on his poo the next day. The carbs in it were obviously not totally utilised, and were excreted, to the delight of the local vermin.

Don't assume it's the carbs - rats are omniverous and love meat! (That's why it's bad to put meat waste on a compost heap - it'll get infested with rats.)

I've just had back an 11 wk old puppy - yes thats right 11 wks with a complaint the animal was feral!!!!!!!

Thankfully knew a behaviourist local to the family who collected said puppy on my behalf and kept her over the xmas wk. Took her 24 hrs to turn this mite around simply by removing the wet food from her dried diet we'd provided her with, when we worked out the nutrition of what the poor pup was being fed it was 45% protein and 45% fat!  The animal was like something on speed, never stopping to rest, hyperactive, it never entered my head the owners would seek advice from a vet nurse and take it over what we as breeders had advised via email, she refused to ring us for a chat. 

Seems the pup didn't feed one evening - nothing unusual about that in our breed, when they lose interest they're not hungry so we cut out a meal from earlier in the day NOT add Sheba wet food to the diet to encourage her to feed - we did advise to complain to the vets about advice given.

> 45% protein and 45% fat

> add Sheba wet food

Are you sure you worked it out properly? Most tinned/wet foods are very low in protein and fat, they're mostly water. I've got some Sheba here for the kittens and it's 8% protein, 3.5% fat :-)

I'm glad you've got your puppy back safely, I think most pups act feral at times :-)

The numbers came from behaviourist and examining vet when she was collected didn't even attempt to work it out as at that point we were unaware of the diet she'd been moved to.

Having read all the comments I would say there is not enough evidence that high protein foods can cause hyper behaviour.  However I am researching raw food diet and I would say that giving dogs food that takes a lot longer to eat and requires chewing can give the dog more satisfaction so hence they may be more content.  Going to raw food will take a bit of planning - my freezer is chock a block at the moment.  I can see that it takes more work and effort from myself to do this - but I think it may be worth a try.  However my dog has to go in kennels when I go away so dry food has to be part of her diet still.   I have downloaded a booklet with all the info.  The other downside is mess - the floor has to be cleaned up well afterwards - I know I can give it to her outside - but she may be inclined to start digging up my garden then.  My husband bought her some beef ribs the other day - she ended up vomiting up bone and bile the following day on my bedroom carpet! 

Hi ceejay - at this time of year I feed bones and chunky meats to my dogs inside their crates (all except one who won't eat his indoors!).  If you'd prefer to feed outside but don't want to tempt a digger then try using a puppy pen sited on paving...  I used to feed my pup in one of these so he could learn to take his time without fear of his bones being stolen by the others.

Mine eat dry food in kennels and sometimes when travelling - it's convenient and they don't mind once in a while

Thankfully knew a behaviourist local to the family who collected said puppy on my behalf and kept her over the xmas wk. Took her 24 hrs to turn this mite around simply by removing the wet food from her dried diet we'd provided her with, when we worked out the nutrition of what the poor pup was being fed it was 45% protein and 45% fat!  The animal was like something on speed, never stopping to rest, hyperactive, it never entered my head the owners would seek advice from a vet nurse and take it over what we as breeders had advised via email, she refused to ring us for a chat.

It may not have been the protein and fat though, it could have been any other artificial additives that have similar effects on dogs as they have on children! It could also just be an ingredient that the puppy reacts to... I have a dog that goes hyper (and very disobedient) after eating cheese or egg simply because he is allergic to them and reacts with hyperactivity!

It takes a while for their digestion to develop the acids needed to digest raw bone, which is why when people only feed very occasional bones they have problems. I found an article online the other day that makes it very clear, I'll see if I can find it but the gist was feed a small amount of raw every day for at least a week before switching completely.

> which is why when people only feed very occasional bones

Thanks for that - and she may have eaten it too fast.  Am looking for a local supply of mince first. 

It takes a while for their digestion to develop the acids needed to digest raw bone,

I've read that too and did take my time building up to feeding bone, another one I'd read is that it's better digested if fed along with meat to start off with as this gets the digestive juices going .

ceejay,

I think so much depends on the biochemistry of the individual dog.

It is a fact that high protein diets (say over 18%) can be enough to block transport of tryptophan across the blood brain barrier. As you know, tryptophan is used to make serotonin and serotonin is key a key inhibitor of many types of aggression.

The blocking is complex but more protein swishing around means that more big amino acids are competing to get across the blood brain barrier and so less tryptophan gets over (although paradoxically tryptophan comes from protein). However, carbohydrate in the right measure stimulates the production of insulin which diverts the larger amino acids away from the BBB into muscle tissue- but tryptophan has immunity to this diversion mechanism.

So much depends on the baseline levels of serotonin and dopamine and then add into that the optimal amounts of protein and carbs needed for that dog to balance things up.

There is some research to suggest that low protein diets are good for control of fear aggression. Examination of the cerebrospinal fluid of dogs with 'dominance' related aggression issues, has been shown to have lower than usual levels of serotonin and dopamine metabolites than controls.

I know this doesn't clarify that much but it seems that probably a mix of protein and carbs is good, without too much protein (over 18%) and that it is not really to do with protein giving the dogs too much energy, it's about levels of neurotransmitters and the impact these have on behaviour and impulse control.

Lurcher girl appreciate what you're saying but as a Mast cell activation disorder sufferer a non Ige form of allergies that has no tests available to show if you have an issue with certain products, we are well aware of the potential for abnormal responses to just about anything in our environment never mind food.

The pup returned to normal puppy behaviour within 48 hrs of going back to the dried diet she was weaned onto and continues to do well with non of the adnormal responses seen before, we purposely didn't got to a raw organic diet so we could monitor her progress on her original diet.  Had that failed we'd have gone for a more stringent elimination diet to help deduce what was causing her issues. I suffer reactions to certain proteins with one being a form of hyperactivity due to the agitation that it causes my nervous system and of course excess adrenaline naturally pumped out at these times.

I have 2 boxers and 3 Bullmastiffs, all of varying age and size. All fed on RMB. 60% bone, 40% meat and offal and table scraps. I can honestly say that since feeding RMB my dogs have become much more laid back and chilled. I foster for Boxer Rescue too and as soon as the dogs come in they are moved onto a raw diet, instantly there is a change in behaviour. Dogs need a high protein high fat diet. They are built that way. The cousin of a dog is a wolf or a dingo. What do these dogs eat?? They certainly do not go running around a field looking for corn or cereal. They dont cook their food. They catch their prey and rip it to shreds. Stomach and offal first, then meat and bone and if they are really hungry even the skin. We as humans somehow have managed to think of our dogs as humans also. They are not - the are carnivores - meat eaters! To feed anything other than the food nature intended to me is just asking for trouble. I've fed the dry foods over the years, lulled into a sense of security by pet food producers. The protein content in pet food doesnt come from meat, it isnt high quality and the kind of protein that dogs need. This is what could create hyperactivity in a dog (along with many many other things they put into these foods that are extremely potent to our beloved!) feeding good protein which comes from meat and high fat which also comes from meat is what will keep your dog healthy but also in the stable mindset. They do not go "wild" on a raw natural diet, it makes them content. There are few people that can keep 4 dogs and a bitch all under one roof of these breeds and have no cross words - i dont think my training is down to this, i think its down to their diet. Raw feeding is what every dog should have, it chills the dogs out :)

> Raw feeding is what every dog should have, it chills the dogs out

If my dog was any more chilled out, he'd be in a coma :) (he's fed kibble & wet food)

Saying that, he's being a complete pain in the bum at the moment, he had some raw steak (previously frozen) a little while ago and is convinced that if he snuffles around the kitchen floor, like a truffle-hunting-pig, that more steak is sure to materialise *rolly eyes* :-D

I know this isn't the behaviour of a 'raw fed' dog, it's just the..... LOL, lost my train of thought, the dog is sat by me resting his head on my shoulder with his slobbery chops right in my face, trying to look his cutest to get me to feed him again LOL!!! ....it's just the behaviour of my food obsessed pig-like dog that has a thing for any type of raw beef.

I do think that food can influence behaviour a little, but unless the dog is sensitive to things then there shouldn't be any unwanted behaviour/energy from any type of feeding. I've even tried Buster on Bakers complete, after reading numerous accounts of how it makes peoples dogs hyper - didn't alter his chilled-out behaviour atall.

Need to go and scrape off all the slobber from my shoulder now.

> I do think that food can influence behaviour a little....

Hahaha yes it can!
One of mine is totally hyper, barking his head off and and wanting to go out every half an hour or more at the moment.

The reason? I've put bird food out as the ground is frozen, and every time the starlings come down to feed he's desperate to go out and tell them off... and to hoover up what they've dropped! So much for a grain-free diet!

> every time the starlings come down to feed he's desperate to go out and tell them off... and to hoover up what they've dropped! So much for a grain-free diet!

LOL :-D