Just wondering if anyone has any advice to offer this is the second time my 3 yr old bitch has missed.

first mated days 13 & 15 several slips and 1 seven minuit tie , ,ated to a proven dog, after 13 days slight discharge given SAFE anti B's from vet, scanned empty.

second mating , progesterone checked ( OPTIMUM fertility ) and mated on days 21/22 with 2 good ties of 18 and 14 minutes, again a proven dog. after 6 days slight pale discharge no anti b's given cleared up on its own, scanned today EMPTY again.

we have done this second time everything we could and timing really could not have been more perfect, but she just wont take...????

she's a giant greed, really don't know what to do, how much blood sweat and tears can you throw at it..??

One of my bitches( the one in my avatar) had 3 phantoms after being mated each time, she did finally get pregnant but unfortunately gave birth to a stillborn pup and 2 partially absorbed pups, she was 6 yrs old in Dec so I decided that enough is enough and she will be spayed. I used saliva test and ovulation pads which showed me she ovulated very early so managed to get her pregnant by mating on days 8 and 10.

At 3 yrs old your bitch is too young to give up on in my opinion.

It may be worth having a thyroid test at your vets. Same thing happened to me with a seemingly fit, healthy 3 year old, she was mated twice, ties etc, scanned twice, no pups. Turned out she had a very low thyroid and probably would have never conceived. Sadly shortly after that she had a closed pyo and had to be spayed, so it was never to be, sadly.

What antibiotics are your vets prescribing?

thanks for the replys , she wasn't given antibiotics this time, the ones she was given first were safe for pregnancy, can't think of the name now Clav something maybe ...!!

will look into the thyroid thing, so if its underactive will she never be able to concieve..?

she is on terms and i have had her since she was 12 months old, all the travel, expenses, breed health testing, stud fees infact EVERYTHIING etc etc is at my cost and also the price of 2 puppies to be paid to the breeder, i just dont know how much more blood sweat and tears, not to mention finances i can keep throwing at this. I have my own bitch who i worry will be one of those who absorbs , she's one of lifes worriers and was a late first season, her first at 16 months.. oh god its so hard work,

you can bet your life both will come in season together nextime, and then what !!!!!!! mate them both .. really narks me off, bloody puppy farmers care nothing and get bitches pregnant left right and center, i care, i love my breed, i spend fortunes on showing and health testing and nothing :-(

Clavaseptin? It's a fairly 'round robin' sort of anti-biotic!

Noroclav lol that was it :-)

Noroclav should be fine.

With my first attempt at breeding a litter, my bitch had 2 good ties with an experienced/proven stud - twice she produced no puppies for no apparent reason.  I then found another stud dog who's owner was much more relaxed about the whole process and we had 2 lovely matings and 9 weeks later a beautiful litter of pups.  The bitch was so much more relaxed being allowed to play with the stud first, instead of being made to stand and the dog come up and mount her without even being allowed to see/sniff him etc - this was many years ago now and things have moved on thankfully. 
So perhaps you could ask around and find a stud where the atmosphere will be more relaxed and the mating be a pleasant experience for you all - even if the dog is not your first choice - although given that you have her 'on terms' the breeder may not find this acceptable. 
As regards both your girls coming into season and being mated together, I would give this some serious thought.  One of my girls missed and was advised by my scanner lady to try mating her at the same time as another as the hormones will help keep her in whelp - I did this last year and we had a litter from her so it was well worth the additional work.
Good luck - try and keep positive, I'm sure it will happen....

Some thyroid & related illness can be hereditary so you could pass this problem
on to any resulting pups. Although not usually life threatening condition (unless left undiagnosed and unmedicated)
it can still be an additional cost to new owners for regular blood tests and medication for the rest of the dogs life.
Also it can affect fertility of resulting pups so if hypothyroid you could have someone in the same position as yourself.
Plus if the bitch is hypothyroid it could put extra stress on her system trying to cope with the thyroid condition and pregnancy
even if medicated.

If she is hypothyroid would be best to discuss with the breeder that you have her on breeding terms with as they may feel that they don't want her to be bred from and that the bitch should be spayed.

It can be just one of those things and fate deciding that she's not supposed to be a mother.
It is easier to have a reason as to why not as it helps us humans cope, sometimes reasons can't be found. 

Had the same problem with 2 bitches of ours to 2 different experienced studs both times empty, they were 5 by nov 2011 both having their first litter in Sept and Oct!

Murphies law dictates that no matter what you do using science a bitch will make her own choice, we had bloods, herpies vaccines, thyroid and other checks done with nothing showing as a problem our vet has a special insterest in conception and pregancy still nothing to show the cause of the problem.  Conclusion?  Erm maybe they just didn't fancy a 1 - 2 day stand, pardon the pun says our witty vet! 

We had the stud male with use for a few mths whilst his owner had a hip replacement with 2 free studs as our fee, thought try both to give us the best chance of having one litter, like murphy says ------- what's the craic here ladies chill ya beans have a litter each resulting in 3 males and 5 females.

thanks again for the replys,

the mating was relaxed really, she alreadys knows the stud we used the second time and had spent time playing around with him, she's one of those dogs that is just perfect in everyway temperment wise, and nothing seems to bother her, she just get on with whatever, she's a DIAMOND and i love her to bits.! bloody typical...!

now my brains ticking away, i'm sure i recall that folks with an underactive thyroid gain/struggle with weight and over active lose/struggle to maintain weigth, now she is a tubber and i can put her on diets and can't seem to shift weight, she gains so easily..!!! something to look into i think, didint know that it could effect fertility though.

If this is the case then i will not be responsible for passing on health issues, certainly if i know about it before hand, i would tell the breeder i'm not prepared to run the risk, i know its there call really but i would want no part of that..! i'm sure they would see it the same way.

after a quick google, she doesn't seem to show the classic hairloss/thining symptoms, she is however very lazy and would sleep 24/7 if it wernt for the fact she loves eating ..!

OK this is what I would do next time (if you can go through it again lol) After you have ruled out that she is fit and healthy and its just simply that shes missing, when she comes into season next time, get some antirobe and baytril and give her these every day until she is mated.  Then stop them.  Then keep your fingers crossed.
I had a bitch that had slight discharge after mating and she always missed. Noroclav/Synulox did nothing to stop it. So in desperation I got the big guns out and asked my vet for baytril and antirobe. Gave them from day one and stopped on mating. No discharge and she had pups, a good sized litter as well.

Good luck :)

yes i think i will get her in for a good check over to make sure there isn't anything like hypothyroidism causing it. will chat with the vet about baytril and antirobe ( thanks rocknrose ) also some one mentioned Receptin injection 24 hours after/on mating to make sure all eggs both sides are released etc and to also keep the progestrone levels going.

frankly its like a needle in a haystack lol could be ANYTHING arggggg ....!

If possible I would find a fertility specialist and make an appointment with them. I took my bitch to a place outside Edinburgh who told me my bitch had hormone problems after her first litter which could be sorted easily. Unfortunately a problem came up in her first litter and I decided to have her spayed rather than risk passing on a problem.

> I took my bitch to a place outside Edinburgh who told me my bitch had hormone problems after her first litter which could be sorted easily. Unfortunately a problem came up in her first litter and I decided to have her spayed rather than risk passing on a problem.

I would not think it wise to perpetuate a line of bitches that may need hormone therapy to achieve conception no matter how easily that can be achieved. 
Personally I would not even bother having these things investigated.  If they cannot conceived easily and quickly leave alone I say.

I agree stooge...

Sorry, I should maybe explain a bit more. She had a litter after having normal seasons, then went on to have the irregular seasons after having this litter. Up to that point she was a normal healthy bitch. She was mated 2 years after this litter but there were no pups and that is why I went to the specialist. She only had the one litter.

I would still recommend that the OP go to a fertility specialist if there appears to be no reason for the lack of pups. They know a lot more about the subject than a 'normal' vet.

> I would still recommend that the OP go to a fertility specialist if there appears to be no reason for the lack of pups.

And do what?
I appreciate your bitch had one litter but then she went on to exhibit sub fertility and so was not entirely "normal".  Her daughters may have also inherited this.
It is one thing for humans to pursue assisted conceptions, although some may also argue this leads to further difficulties down the line, but the same psychological issues do not apply to animals so there really is no reason to push against nature and assist individuals to remain in the gene pool where it may be more sensible to leave them out of it.

Were both males closely related?

> I would not think it wise to perpetuate a line of bitches that may need hormone therapy to achieve conception no matter how easily that can be achieved. 

I wrote a reply along these lines yesterday but then on reflection, deleted it. I seemed to be pouring cold water on the OPs hopes but I feel this is such an important long term view, its worth putting my tuppence worth in
after all Ive been there and now realise  stuff I wished Id known back then............

To the OP......Id give her another try then, if no joy, Id seriously consider whether I should be basing a breeding line on a bitch which doesnt exactly have pups 'like falling off a log'.

I know this will seem a flippant and callous remark .....but seriously think long term about her contribution to your future plans.
Sometimes it takes many years to see that in the long term only keeping very fertile, very easy whelping and very careful and loving mothers is setting yourself up to succeed...
Using all the science and intervention available to us these days may get you a nice bitch puppy...but you may start all over again.

You will often hear dog breeders talking about their 'bad luck' in breeding. You can affect this 'luck'.

I'd try another time but use the herpes vacc. You never know.

A fertility specialist is trained in reasons as to why animals do not conceive. I do not mean for them to help to get the bitch pregnant, but to find out the reason why she isn't getting pregnant. It may be something simple like an infection, or it may be something along the lines of the thyroid. They are the ones who will be more able to help with diagnosis.

My bitch has been neutered, as have more than half of the litter she initially had. The others will not be added to the gene pool but the oners have their own reasons for not neutering.

To the OP, I would try a dog that is unrelated to the 2 dogs you have already tried, but I would also have a word with a specialist. If it is a medical reason for her non pregnancies then I would go back to her breeder and tell them that you can't breed from this bitch.

now she is a tubber and i can put her on diets and can't seem to shift weight, she gains so easily..!!! something to look into i think, didint know that it could effect fertility though.

A very experienced breeder I know alway gets her bitches weight right down prior to mating - it makes a lot of sense for many reasons to have a fitter, leaner bitch.  We've had a couple of slightly heavy bitches to our stud and neither of them conceived - I do think there is something to be said for having a leaner bitch.

good advice thank you all.

I will try her again and if it happens for us great, but if not than i think its not a great start to building a kennel...!  if she does miss AGAIN then i will try to find out why, not to right and health issues but to KNOW and understand. 

The studs are un-related and the first time she was in the peak of fitness and health, the breeder commented how her solid and good her condition was, didnt help lol nows she's gained some and still no joy, i probably am being unfair really as she is probably normal/has good cover on her but i call her fatty as my other bitch is a sod to get weight on and the 2 together it stands out on them both, seperatley its not to obvious..! my other bitch is young, tall, long and really rangy, unlike tubby whos smaller but compact and very solid.!

i would have liked her to be foundation bitch but maybe this is nature telling me that its not meant to be as much as i would have liked..! dont want to breed infertility into a line thats a DEFFINATE especially for my breed...!