My sister has a gundog breed, She brought  8 week old bitch from good breeder, both sire and dam been hip scored, both have very good hips. The bitch is now 18mths old and came back from the vets today after been hip scored. The vet said her hip are really bad the barley sit in the socket. The xrays have been sent of to be scored. She is very up set as she spent alot of time trying to finding the perfect parents with good breeding and low hip scores. How does this happen that her bitches hips are really bad.

>How does this happen that her bitches hips are really bad.

So sorry to hear about the bitch's hips. Unfortunately HD is a very unpredictable condition; it has environmental elements (feeding, exercise etc) as well as genetic elements.  She did all the right things by searching for a pup bred from low-scoring parents, but sometimes nature plays 'dirty'. :-( Does she know the scores of the grandparents?

> How does this happen that her bitches hips are really bad.

HD is a polygenic condition which means that many genes are involved. As yet, no-one knows exactly what they are. So poor hips on a bitch whose parents have good hip scores, may just mean that particular mating has doubled up on hidden traits that no-one knew were being carried. Of course there is an environmental effect on the development of the hips & sockets too which the breeders can not do anything about once the pup has left them.

As far as quality of life for your sister's bitch is concerned, many dogs with HD can live a decent enough life. With appropriate exercise and possibly supplements to her diet, she could well do OK.

But it must be disappointing if your sister had plans to breed from her.

yes both grandparents had been hip scored, spoke to the vet as she very upset, the vet said feeding, exercise has nothing to do with it. as my sister was very careful with her and feds her on very good food. yes the plan was to breed her.

My sister had a litter of 7 from parents that scored below 10 and in those days she would charge extra for the pups and the fees for scoring would be returned once she had received a copy of the results of the pups hip score. From this litter she had 6 pups below 10 and one of 78 - it happens, sometimes it is the upbringing and sometimes it is an unfortunate quirk of nature.

Thing is dogs are bred for the bred as a whole as well as for a particular litter, if scoring is done on all breeding stock and only the lowest are used then the breed as a whole will find the overall scores will drop over the years but it is a long term project and there will always be the unfortunate pup who will not be as hoped and expected.

Wait for the results and if they are as bad as expected then a chat with the vet to decide the way to best handle the situation and the dog will probably live a long and happy live the only problem being if the plan was to breed but then anything can happen to preclude breeding between picking a pup and it reaching breeding age.

the vet said feeding, exercise has nothing to do with it. as my sister was very careful with her and feds her on very good food.

I'm afraid that's simply not true -it is a very wellknown fact that exercising a growing puppy too much can cause HD.

and 'very good food' can unfortunately add to the problems with the pup growing too quickly or with too much calcium :-(

As others have pointed out the nature of HD means it's impossible to prevent, breeders can only work with the information available, there are many genes which have to come together to cause HD and they behave differently when with different genes, making it impossible so far to identify the genes so no genetic test :-( Sorry your plans for breeding wont be possible and the breeder you got your pup from would be advised not to repeat the mating and to avoid putting those lines together in future.

Environmental factors can play a part - knocks which may have gone unnoticed or a difficult birth can cause problems later, including HD.  Excessive strain can also make for bad hips, some say they can only make potentially bad hips worse, but I know of at least one case where excessive exercise has ruined a dog's hips.  Feeding and growing patterns can also contribute.

Basically, as long as the breeder has used caution which clearly they have, it's sadly just one of those things, rather than being someone's fault.  Very different if the breeder had used high scoring dogs or those of known incompatible lines.

food and exercise does play a part or so the genetecists (can't spell) who are more involved in just hips advise.  I'm sorry but general vets sometimes don't know everything about specialised areas such as eyes, hips etc. 

As others have said sometimes it's just nature having a go at us and all that anyone can do is try and ensure they use the best dogs all round.

Once she gets the hip scores back she will contact the breeder. Thanks for your replys.

One thing that I haven't read on any posts, so will ask now. How many x-rays do the vets score? None, they are scored by a specialist panel. I have heard of cases where an owner has been told the hips are bad and they come back with good scores, so I would wait until they have been scored before kicking off.

On the other hand, if the hips are as bad as the vet says then the breeder, if a decent one, will like to know, and will probably be horrified that they have a high score. All we breeders can do is try to breed from the best, but nothing in breeding is certain. I have bred a couple of litter mates that have elbow dysplacia and was horrified, more so when I found out that one owner wasn't going to inform me. It was only when I contacted them that I was made aware of a 2nd one in the litter. I needed to know for future breeding purposes. Otherwise how can we know if we are breeding healthy animals.

I was in the same position 10years ago with my lab girl. She came from parents with excellent hip scores (mother was 0/0) when I took my girl in to be xrayed @ 2years old the vet said she had severe HD, the phrase he used for the score was that it would be 'cricket score type numbers) I don't know her actual score as he said there was no point in sending them to the BVA, wish I had out of interest now (and also it isn't on her record so if I was dishonest I could have bred her and said she was unscored) . Also said they were really worn and looked like the hips of a 12yr old that had been running on the moors all her life. I was really upset at the time, however: She Is now 12 years old, has been very happy for the last 10 years, she is on trocoxil for her hips for the last 8 months and was on part-time previcox for a couple of years before that. She has a nasty eye ulcer atm but she has been very healthy until now. 
Do tell your sister that it's not always terrible news, I had my girl spayed as there is no way I would consider breeding from her but that's my loss not hers. She's been a very happy pet! 
BTW I have always raw fed, she wasn't over exercised ( a naturally sedentary disposition helped with that!) and has never had any injury.

I do wonder if part of the unpredictability of HD is that it would be quite easy for someone unscrupulous to swap registrations/dogs around if they wished. I for example could have bred from my HD girl and registered them as coming from one of my other spayed black bitches with a good hipscore.

I for example could have bred from my HD girl and registered them as coming from one of my other spayed black bitches with a good hipscore.

That would have meant both you and the owner of the stud to be dishonest and those in the breed to turn a blind eye, it has happened because we hear of the fines and penalties paid but it is difficult to avoid the nosy, thank goodness.

> I do wonder if part of the unpredictability of HD is that it would be quite easy for someone unscrupulous to swap registrations/dogs around if they wished.

That is no longer possible, as dogs are required to be permanently identified (chip or tattoo) and this checked when they are presented for any of the KC schemes.

not hard to find a KC reg dog with an owner who doesn't care/understand registration i suppose.
Though thinking it over (and I'm not endorsing it or suggesting I'd contemplate it, this is purely academic!) if I booked to a stud dog (and I'm talking working larbradors so not a small known circle of people by any means) my black labrador bitch 'fluffy socks' (eg!) and turned up with Black Lab bitch 'fru fru' how would they know? My immediate family struggle to tell my pack apart so a stranger wouldn't have a hope.

Brainless, when you say Kc Schemes, do you mean for shows or health tests or ??? not heard of this before.

Health schemes all dogs submitted for hips, eyes, DNA etc.

Can't have any dog go under any of the health schemes now without positive permanent ID, which is why unregistered and non breeds can also be scored etc.

http://www.bva.co.uk/canine_health_schemes/Canine_Health_Schemes.aspx

"Permanent identification
From 1st January 2010 it has been necessary for any dog certified under the Schemes to be permanently identified by either microchip or tattoo. These regulations were put into place to ensure the continued development of quality breeding standards within the UK. For more information or clarification of this policy contact the CHS office on the details below."

Just replying to the last poster for convenience.

While we're on the subject of hips, I had someone tell me that their 6 month old puppy had been diagnosed with hip displacia.  Obviously, they are devastated, it's their first pup.  However, can this be diagnosed so early?  Surely there's a reason why hips are scored at 12 months old?  Is this vet just jumping the gun? 

This is what the BVA article http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Hip_Dysplasia.pdf on HD says:
"Developmental demands
It is argued that dogs are not born with
hip joints already affected by dysplasia
(unlike humans) but that any faults in
development will tend to escalate with
time, particularly during the rapid growth
phase from about 14 to 26 weeks of age.
However, changes begin as the very young
puppy starts to become active and continue
until the puppy is skeletally mature. Wear
and tear of the deformed joint results
in varying amounts of inflammation
and degeneration which lead to more
deformity. This progressive deformation
is sometimes referred to as remodelling.
Some dogs may treble their size and body
weight in just three months of adolescence
so it is not surprising that there are many
critical factors for the puppy at this stage.
All the essential nutritional requirements
for skeletal growth must be available in
the right proportions and at the right
time. The environment within which the
dog is raised, including the type and
intensity of exercise, growth rate and body
weight are significant influences. However
Inheritance is a major factor and this is
something which we are able to influence
by the selection of breeding animals.

thanks
Good to know, sounds like a positive move. Is it recent or am I just unaware!?
still though, I think that could have potential for abuse in that some one with 1 good dog that for some reason failed to breed could sub puppies from another unregistered and untested bitch. Though I imagine (making a broad and prejudiced assumption here) that someone who had a registered dog who had gone to the trouble to health test before trying to breed would be less likely to deliberately and fraudulently breed from untested dogs. especially as that would be a lot of trouble to go to especially remembering that there is still a good market for unregistered puppies with people who don't care about pedigree dogs and would buy anything 'for a pet' .

sorry, gone OT here!

> someone who had a registered dog who had gone to the trouble to health test before trying to breed would be less likely to deliberately and fraudulently breed from untested dogs.

there are no rules against registering or breeding from dogs with bad hip scores. It way not be ethical but the kc will register litters from dogs with poor hip scores. I believe even the assured breeders who have to health test can register litters from parents with below average scores.

But at least the goods are labelled for all to see.

>Good to know, sounds like a positive move. Is it recent or am I just unaware!?

"From 1st January 2010", so nearly 2 years ago now.

> But at least the goods are labelled for all to see.

I couldn't agree more. Much more help to breeders to be able to look back through the lines. Same applies to puppy buyers too.

I agree with other posters about the vets's comments.  I had the same thing myself last year, my vet phoned me all doom & gloom about my dog's hip X-ray and asked if I wanted them sent to the BVA (of course I did). The score came back as the breed average. I wasn't concerned about this bitch as she can clear an extra high dog gate without a second thought but 2 vets at the practice told me "no breeding" as if that was the b-all and end-all of things to consider before breeding. The vets always want X-ray perfection 0:0 scores and it doesn't happen like that.

You only have to look at the hip & elbow scores in the BRS to see the wide variation within a litter.

I have owned litter brothers. Different litters but brothers none the less.  My first boy, a absolute fantastic example of the breed, had a hip score 7/4 which is OK for our breed (and I am talking 20 years!!).  The second brother came 2 years later to hopefully follow his brothers success.  This dog had a tipped ear, an over-bite and no overlay on his coat, oh, and severe HD.  I raised my boys exactly the same on the same nutrition with no injuries to either whilst growing.  Vet put it down to mother natures bad sense of humour!  I thought I was safe.

On a positive note, I also got told my boy was so severe that his hips were barely in the joint and basically it was the ligaments/muscle that was holding his back legs on!  Apparently, this is the best type of HD(if you want to get it!) as it's not as painful as joints rubbing and bumping together.  My dog had no socket to bump off of.  So, we slowly built up his muscle and watched his weight and I'm very pleased to say he lived to almost 14 years old and dementia got him in the end.  He never had a day of painkillers his entire life.  But he did wear a copper collar and take joint supplements.  PS  This was a very large breed dog.

Good luck with your little girl.

>I have owned litter brothers. Different litters but brothers none the less.

Just being picky, but they were full brothers, not litter brothers. Just sayin'. :-)

You're quite right about no (or virtually no) socket being easier on the animal than middling sockets. In fact one of the treatments for severe HD is to remove the head of the femur entirely and allow the hip to be supported by muscle alone. Far less painful than grating bone.

I've also experienced the vet saying that the score would be bad - only to get a score of 2:2. I was pretty pleased with that :)

And also had a vet say the hips looked absolutely fine - got a score of 24:3.

Moral of my story - don't panic quite yet

Thanks Barbara, food for thought.

Apparently this vet has said that nothing can be done yet anyway, so I think I'll recommend waiting until he's 12 months then go to Mike Guilliard for scoring. 

That's a bit strange as my vet says they like to operate(if they can) when the dog is between 8 months to a year.  After a year old, the window for the new op has closed as they need to still be growing.  The do this new op at Glasgow Vet school but not sure if anywhere else.

Strange, this guy was told by his vet it had to be done by 3 months (which at the time I thought was very strange!) or they had to wait until he was about 18 months! 

The range of opinions from vets about this is remarkable!!

When our rescue collie bitch was diagnosed with HD 5 years ago, our vet said to delay having the op as long as possible because the resulting hip would only last 5 or so years so would have to be repeated later on in her life. (She had the op done a year later and is still going strong on it.)

I had a "oo bad hips "and they were less than half breed average! Is it possible for vets to position the hips so they look  almost dislocated or is this just bad hips can the positioning make any difference re subluxation?

the vet said feeding, exercise has nothing to do with it. as my sister was very careful with her and feds her on very good food

Completely agree with Marianne. It certainly can have an effect.

I took it to mean the vet was saying it did not apply in this instance ie the dog was not over exercised.