Hi all,

I would really value the opinion of other dog owners on the forum.

About six weeks ago we got a Doberman bitch pup and had a few minor issues with one of the other dogs (5 year old BT) taking to her and posted on here. However, we managed to ride that out and he accepted her.

However, now the tides have turned and she is turning into a terror! I have had three terriers in the past and are used to puppyhood and very, very lively and demanding dogs. However, she is a completely different issue!

She is way too rough and ready when with the other dogs. She constantly nips/bites at our legs, feet and arms when she gets excited. When we correct her she stops and then as we walk away she charges and does it again! She essentially plays far too hard and won't take NO for an answer. The other dogs are all small breeds and older and don't want it. I don't really want it!

As soon as we let her into the living room to join the older dogs she charges at them and doesn't stop so she ends up being back in the kitchen. She bites one of them incessantly and although he doesn't cry he does try to get out of her way. She seems to have no manners at all and yet has been constantly corrected by all three dogs and both of us. We are experienced dog owners and we have been training her - sit, recall, lead and tried to establish basic manners. She is fully house trained and is getting plenty of stimulus. She just seems a bit of a bully. I know that sounds silly as she is a puppy but that is the best way I can describe her.

The upshot is that I am seriously thinking about re-homing her as she is only a source of stress for all of us. I find myself relieved when she is asleep, which is not good!

What have we done wrong? Is this a Doberman thing?

> What have we done wrong? Is this a Doberman thing?

Just sounds like a puppy thing to be honest. I remember my niece being terrified of my youngest collie as she was just teeth on legs for a while, flying round biting everything in her path!

The bite stops here really does work, perseverance is the key and she will come out the other end of it. As for the other dogs I've always just left them to sort it out, and never chastised an adult one for telling the pup off but if your adults are smaller and elderly then they may need help - distracting the pup when she goes to pounce on them and make yourself more interesting so she plays with you instead of them :-)

When my collie pup was absolutely wild like that I would take her out to the garden alone and have a rough and tumble game with a tuggy with her - using the techniques in the link when she bit me instead of the tuggy. 5 or 10 mins of wild play with little bits of training and she was tired enough to come back into the house and settle with the rest.

Edited to say, how much time does she spend alone and how much with the otehr dogs? I wonder if there is a novelty value there? My pups are with the other dogs from the moment they come home, never separated unless I am out and then they are confined to the kitchen for house training purposes.

Sounds completely normal to me, and just what my youngest pup is like (just starting to ease up now at nearly 11 months, and after 1st season), except mine are all same breed.

The pup doesn't understand she is bigger than the others, she plays as all puppies play, so unfortunately with puppy license it is a management thing.

Distraction techniques and escape routes for the others is all you can do and replace the mad sessions with some extra training sessions, though take care some of it isn't being over tired and getting OTT due to this..

Really?

Maybe it is because she is a larger breed that it feels so full on!? In ten years of dog ownership I have never experienced anything like it! Friends of ours have big dogs and they were never like this.

Another six months of this!?

:(

As others have said it is puppy behaviour, I do wonder what age the pup was when it was taken from the nest. Make sure the other dogs can escape her attentions if they wish and wait for her to grow up a bit.

However if you do not have the patience to deal with her as a puppy it would be better for you and the family and much much better for her if she were sent back to her breeder to re-home and you decide to have no more large breed puppies.

Yes a very normal puppy!

> As soon as we let her into the living room to join the older dogs she charges at them and doesn't stop so she ends up being back in the kitchen

This sounds like excitement,if you keep her separate from your other dogs then when she does see them she will get over the top with excitement. You then say you put her back in the kitchen. This is just encouraging her be over exuberant. Some friends of mine have two small breed dogs and complained one day that they would not settle in the lounge when allowed in on odd occasions. Well no they were too happy to be allowed in with them to even think of being calm. Now that they have free access they dont charge round like lunatics anymore.

Hi,

She sleeps in the kitchen and yes, she has ended up being separated from the other dogs for most of the day as she just doesn't calm down. We have tried playing with her separately to tire her out (doesn't work). We have tried leaving them all to get on with it (doesn't work). The older dogs just get stressed out as she is already bigger than them and doesn't seem bothered by their reproaches. If anything I think she thinks they are playing when they tell her enough and she gets even more excited. We have tried distracting her attention when she is with the other dogs (doesn't work).

The longest we have left them all together (supervised) was two hours and she still didn't stop! :O

I work from home and just don't have two hours of my day to allow a puppy to commandeer the house.

As others have said it is puppy behaviour, I do wonder what age the pup was when it was taken from the nest. Make sure the other dogs can escape her attentions if they wish and wait for her to grow up a bit.

She was eight weeks when we brought her home.

The older dogs do have escape routes but as soon as they want to come back into the living room she starts again.

I don't want it to get to the point where my older dogs are spending all their time away from the living room (and me) to escape the pup.

There just doesn't seem much pleasure to be had for either us, her or our other dogs.

Have to agree it sounds like normal puppy behaviour, some are just more demanding than others.  I really hope you can persevere as it will just be a phase.

Although you say you are experienced dog owners, do you still take her to puppy classes?  I feel this is beneficial for every owner and pup however many dogs you have had in the past.  I have owned plenty and run training classes but any new pup still joins a puppy class.  It can help to see other owners are going through the same thing and also someone can show you some tips face to face. 

What is she like if she is out in the garden with you and the other dogs?  If she gets over the top can you distract her with a toy or food (something really tasty like liver or garlic sausage) away from the others?

Is she getting plenty of sleep?  I'm not sure how old she is but I make sure mine have a quiet space (pen/crate) where they go regularly throughout the day as pups so they get quality sleep, this stops some of the manic sillyness.

She essentially plays far too hard and won't take NO for an answer. The other dogs are all small breeds and older and don't want it. I don't really want it!


This is why it isn't always a good idea to mix little and large..... There is no way I will let my little dogs be together with the big YOUNG ones as it just doesn't work. So they are kept separate ALL the time. My 8 toydogs live with an 11 year old bigger dog who obviously has settled with age -if anything they bully her. The younger big dogs are kept separate. They even have separate gardens. Should I let the big one year olds I have be with the small dogs I know it would be disaster and somebody would end up getting hurt.

Playing a lot, walking a lot etc can make a hyper dog more hyper -the best way to tire a dog out is mentally, playing games which involves using brain and nose.

Hi,

Yes, we have taken her to two puppy classes and she was very passive around the puppies and behaved herself. of course she is constantly watching and evaluating and I wonder how long this calm will last.

She is the same in the garden as she is in the living room, kitchen or hall. If the other dogs are around she goes barmy!

As her bed is in the kitchen (away from other dogs) she gets plenty of sleep.

It is VERY demanding!

"I work from home and just don't have two hours of my day to allow a puppy to commandeer the house."

I find that comment a concern as my dogs expect and get considerably more than 2 hours a day of my attention.

Thanks for your response Goldmali!

I was starting to think that I had unrealistic expectations of what is acceptable behaviour for a pup with older dogs.

When the Doberman puts her mouth around the Border Terrier's neck and pulls at him I can't just brush it off as 'play' and 'let them get on with it' as it is clearly distressing him and I can see her getting more excited by his attempts to get away.

:(

I think I agree with you and that the problem here is the small dog - large dog mix. I don't think she is bothered by their reproaches and that is why she continues the behaviour.

Tie the pup to you.  This is a full-time thing but only for a short time.  My large breed male was getting too 'excited'(in the male sense) with my old cocker.  I couldn't get him to stop and he was hurting the old girl and she was getting stressed out.  My local trainer gave me the idea to keep the male on the lead for a while if he has access to the other dogs.  If the other dogs were out or in the kitchen, he got free run but if the little ones were about, he was on his lead and I attached this to my belt.  It meant I was able to get ontop of the unwanted behaviour straight away rather than chasing him about the living room while he had great fun.  Worked a treat. He no longer messes with the girls and stops when told now! 
Sounds to me though like you have allready made up your mind to re-home and are looking for the OK from somewhere.  You are right, dogs are supposed to be a pleasure but they don't come out the package like that.  A lot of work would get you the dog of your dreams but if you don't put in the legwork, then it's always going to be a disaster.  If you feel re-homing is right for all of you, don't look for reassurance from strangers.  Only you know.

>Is this a Doberman thing?

As others have said this is normal puppy behaviour but I also wonder how much research you did on this breed.

Dobermans have a zest for life similar to 'Tigger' from Winnie the Pooh.  My girl is 9 and she is always full on, demanding attention, wanting to play.  This is not an independant breed, they don't want their own space, they want to be interacting.  They are also stronger than they realise, my Dobe knocked my Chow clean off his feet and he weighs 32kg, when he grumps at her she acts like she did nothing wrong.

The up side is that they have lovely natures and are very smart and loyal.  Do you have any chews for her, some of those tough nyla bones? Chewing will keep her busy and help to calm her. I would also keep her away from your other dogs until you have finished your play and training sessions with her as then she will have had the edge taken off her energy levels.  The key is to keep her mind busy, chews, filled kongs, even teach her to seek out toys and treats that you have hidden round the house under cushions etc.

It will get easier but she will need a lot of imput from you at this stage, they are not called the velcro dogs for nothing.

Hi Lunamoona,

We did quite a bit of research. My partner has always wanted a Doberman and so we spent some time with the breed as we have a friend who is related to a very good breeder. This isn't something we jumped into and contrary to some of the insinuations embedded in the above posts we do care greatly about our dogs; don't only dedicate 2 hours a day to the dogs (a gross mis-reading and mis-interpretation of my initial post) nor are we looking for excuses to get rid of her (as suggested above).

We are just struggling and I thought this space may be useful to get the benefit of others experience as we haven't had a large breed dog before.

Thank you for your posts but please do remember that just because someone is struggling and asks for some advice doesn't make them a less caring, responsible or loving owner. If we didn't care for or want to create a good home for our dogs I wouldn't be spending time on here fielding advice.

It sounds like a normal puppy thing to me too. The only problem is that she's bigger than the other dogs - a puppy their own size behaving towards them in the same way wouldn't seem nearly as OTT and they'd be able to deal with it themselves perfectly well.

When she comes into the living room is there space for the other dogs to get away, or can you partition it off? Dobes are renowned for needing to be with people, so unless you spend time out in the kitchen with her she'll be very excited when she's back in company again, and you're back to square one.

Hi LeeJames40
I have a now 2 and a half year old Bracco Italiano, who was exactly like you describe you dobe. He had no idea of his strength or size in comparison to the other dog in our house (Irish Setters and American Cockers) he was and still can be rough when playing with the others. The little ones are really not fussed on him and will tell him off pretty quickly if he's getting on their nerves. The Irish just takes it all on the chin. I found the best thing was to let the other dogs do the telling off, when they've really had enough they'll tell her and she'll listen, a dog telling a dog off is so much more powerful than a person telling a dog off.

Also I would suggest a marker word to help her understand exactly which part of her behaviour is not acceptable. Use something that you can't say in an angry way, ie Whoops or Uh-oh. The idea is not that she feels told off, but that the word means she's done the wrong thing. I found with my bracco that shouting and balling at him only makes him switch off and stop paying attention, she'll just tune you out. Best to say your marker word and then say nothing more but move her away from the dog she's bothering. The idea about tying her lead to you is also a good one, which I've seen used successfully. It will be full on for a while, but being consistent she should start to improve soon. Although as other above have said, this is pretty standard behaviour for a large breed puppy, and large breeds do tend to hang on to puppy traits a bit longer than small ones, so be prepared!

Alex

Hi Alex,

Thanks for your post. I found it really helpful.

I think I am just getting used to a large breed puppy which is very different to the smaller terrier breeds I have had before. They were full on but in a more manageable way. For example, a ball or furry thing waved in their direction and then thrown ALWAYS distracted them from any unwanted behaviours. When I do this with the Dobie she just looks at me as if I am a fool and continues her tirade!

I will try your marker word and see how we get on.

Thank you.

Good luck, my friends young Dobe has just eaten her sofa at 11 months old, lol.. I've got a young Rottie pup and she is full on and destroying everything in her path, like a tornado almost, my poor adult male is getting a large brunt of her antics.. Hehe... gotta love em..

Things will get better as time goes on and you clearly care about your dogs.I have medium sized hounds and have a 14 month old pup who would try the patience of a saint.However you seem to have recognised the impact a large breed can have on a household.Hang on in there and good luck.

>We are just struggling and I thought this space may be useful to get the benefit of others experience as we haven't had a large breed dog before.

We all have challenging days with our dogs and puppies can get pretty full on.  You've had a few useful suggestions here and I'm sure you will get through this.  Maybe you could put an poster up in your local vet to see if there are any other large breed pups who want a playmate of the same size.

Good luck :)

I think your question "Where is the pleasure?" is one that a lot of puppy owners admit to.

All pups, but large breeds particularly, can be very full on and needy for a while.  I used to think one of my dogs, as a puppy, would never make it off a wipe clean floor; and I felt that he'd get a complex as every time he woke up, and toddled in to see where we were, I used to rush him straight outside for a wee!!  When they are still very young they need so much attention and distraction that you wonder if you'll ever get your days and evenings back.  They were moments when the the two older dogs and I would just look at our new puppy and wonder just what we'd let ourselves in for; the two older ones waited very patiently - months - for the puppy to go home..

I do smile at those people who say they 'just love puppies'.  They must be mad!  I love having the opportunity to shape the dog I'm going to get but I much prefer them at 6 months or so :)

I agree with keeping the puppy with you.  I'd often keep mine on a lead in the house, it's great for training heel work but also teaching them to settle comfortably for some down time without pinging up every 2 seconds to harass the others, or chew a cushion, or stalk a spider, or dance about, or play in the curtains, or....

> I do smile at those people who say they 'just love puppies'.  They must be mad!  I love having the opportunity to shape the dog I'm going to get but I much prefer them at 6 months or so

I agree, pups are a pain in the neck. They're hard work, more hassle, can't walk far enough to take out with the adults etc. They're a means to an end if you want a specific dog and need it to fit in with an existing pack but I much prefer them when they get to 2 years old and every year after that they just get more and more perfect.

As someone else said this is very much a Velcro breed compared to what your used to, and where the terriers would have been quite happy to take toys away and vent their energies on them, the dobes will only be happy if you or the others join in and interact.

As has been said putting her out in some ways can be counter productive in that when brought back into the living room she is over excited.

I would attach a lead to her collar and have times where she has to settle by you while you all are in the living room.

If I have it right she is only about 14 weeks old so once she starts going our for proper walks, only 15 minutes on lead walking and the rest sitting or standing about watching the world, then 20 minutes at 4 months and so on with extra 5 minutes for each month of life until she is a year old, when you will have slowly built up to an hour) she will tire from the mental activity.

I have helped socialise several young Dobe puppies for a friend over the years (as she worked full time), they really are a wonderful affectionate, protective, clever, Velcro breed.

> I agree, pups are a pain in the neck. They're hard work, more hassle, can't walk far enough to take out with the adults etc. They're a means to an end if you want a specific dog and need it to fit in with an existing pack but I much prefer them when they get to 2 years old and every year after that they just get more and more perfect.

I feel exactly the same!!!!

Have to admit I felt the same about the children, but unfortunately after they get nice and interesting they then hit teenage and become horrible again ;)

With puppies those stages are condensed and follow each other.

> The key is to keep her mind busy, chews, filled kongs, even teach her to seek out toys and treats that you have hidden round the house under cushions etc.

Just wanted to highlight this.  Dobes are smart little devils, they need their brain occupying and hiding food and using chews is an excellent way of doing it (they do like a good chew - just be aware that they are also well known as extremely destructive dogs and not many toys will withstand them ;-) ).

With my dogs, I scatter feed a fair bit - I take their meal and throw it around the garden for them to find.  They have to engage their brain and nose and it tires them out nicely.  Searching is also good - especially for River and Raine, not dobes but very, very smart dogs (Rai especially takes after her malinois side and takes a lot of work, more than the dobes) and I've found that searching for a toy that I've hidden is very effective at tiring them out.  Not done it with the dobes much as none of them have really been into it - Soli did start to enjoy it in her last year mind, but only out on walks.

You can hide her food round the house too, just as good as outside and useful if she's like so many dobes and a complete wuss with the weather!

Up the training too - the more work you put in now, with individual training sessions (I always advocate clicker training and dobes especially get on very well with it), the more responsive she will be and the easier the teenage stage will be when she hits it.  As a girl she shouldn't be quite as bad as a boy would be but she will still test your patience!

Also, if you really work hard on a specific cue - I find the 'down' very useful for this - you should be able to use it as an incompatible behaviour - that is, something you can cue her to do that is totally at odds with her OTT play behaviour (i.e. she phyically cannot do both at the same time).  I did this with Soli - her idea of play was just horrible, lots of chasing and badgering and she was a big 33kg adult :-O I got her 'down' very solid so when she started to badger, I could just have her drop on cue - then she couldn't badger, and it brought her focus back to me.  Very useful (even more so to stop her running off to strange dogs).

I'm so relieved to find some other people who feel like this! I do love having a puppy because I can train and shape it how I want (and how the puppy wants to some extent, haha), but my youngest is so much nicer now she's nearly 18 months old. And I'm off to look at another puppy on Thursday - I must be insane, just when life was quietening down! :-D

>I do smile at those people who say they 'just love puppies'.  They must be mad!  I love having the opportunity to shape the dog I'm going to get but I much prefer them at 6 months or so

>I agree, pups are a pain in the neck. They're hard work, more hassle, can't walk far enough to take out with the adults etc.

My feelings too! I often think the nicest part about puppies is that they grow up to be dogs!

> And I'm off to look at another puppy on Thursday

Oh that's exciting Lucy :-) More info please - a girl? colour?

> I often think the nicest part about puppies is that they grow up to be dogs!

Agreed :-)

I do smile at those people who say they 'just love puppies'.  They must be mad!

I always say I wish Malinois were born already 2 years old. Then you only have a few years of hard work until they are veterans -and VETERANS is what I prefer! :) Not because they slow down, they never do in either of my breeds, but it's from about 7 onwards they start to be perfect as far as behaviour goes. :)

Blenheim girl - fingers crossed! Nearly 10 weeks old so will have to fight the impulse to take home straight away if I like what I see - breeder is happy to keep till after Christmas and I think in-laws would prefer not to have un housetrained puppy in their granny annex for 3 days! But sod's law I like her, agree for her own best interest to collect after Christmas, then the lady changes her mind, which is exactly what happened with a different breeder in June! Oh well, perhaps I'll be lucky this time. I might not even want the puppy when I see her move, though head shots look promising....

>Oh that's exciting Lucy  More info please - a girl? colour?

So glad to hear I'm not the only one who isn't pup mad. Always been made to feel like the devil incarnate before. Pups and kids are nicest once water tight!! :-D

I must have a screw loose somewhere, I do love having puppies !.

Love puppies...just love them when they grow up even more.

I can empathise with the hooligan dobe pup as Ive had 30 years of boxer pups in the house......often full on and very wearing. Many a time Ive wished them grown....but it passes :-)

Fingers crossed for you Lucy. :) :)

It's funny, I was looking at my Cavalier calendar on the wall yesterday, and December is a Tricolour and a Blenheim. Then I looked at the Papillons around me -mainly Red Sable and white but also one Tricolour. In Cavaliers, my eye immediately goes to the Blenheims and the Tris do nothing for me at all, but in Papillons it's the opposite -I go weak at the knees for a Tri.

>I must have a screw loose somewhere, I do love having puppies !.

Me too!  So you're not on your own.  I adore it that I have 5 week olds running round and having fun.  They keep running up for a love and a cuddle.  Although it isn't the same as having large dogs running around I admit!

I also adore human babies.  I love them to bits.  I really don't like it that they have to grow up into people!!

> Have to admit I felt the same about the children, but unfortunately after they get nice and interesting they then hit teenage and become horrible again

If only you could fast forward 13 - 21 !

Have to agree with that. My daughter has just turned 21 and I thought to myself the other day, I do actually quite like her! lol

I work from home and just don't have two hours of my day to allow a puppy to commandeer the house.

Then I would seriously rethink your situation, if you don't have two hrs to spare now, then how will you cope with an adult large breed,  maybe you never really gave this enough thought if you feel  you cant give a puppy the time he needs , maybe speak to breeder and agree to return to her/him, and allow them to find the right home for this pup.

jackbox, I think Leejames meant they don't have 2 EXTRA hours to devote to this specific behaviour on top of the other time they put in with their dogs.

Leejames, have you tried hand and/or arm signals?  Some dogs (my Italian Spinone boys) often quite oblivious to voice commands, but very responsive indeed to hand signals.  You could create your own for "leave" (the other dogs alone) - experiment and see what, if anything works?  Something really startling and unmistakeable like, eg, shooting your hand straight up in the air like a kid wanting teacher's attention maybe.
Call her name to get attention, and then use the arm signal in conjuncion with verbal command initially till she gets the idea. Good luck and sympathies!

Re pups in general - after my largebreed boy grew out of the puppy stage (now 2 1/2) I decided he was the last puppy, enough was enough, you don't have the required energy as you get older!

> jackbox, I think Leejames meant they don't have 2 EXTRA hours to devote to this specific behaviour on top of the other time they put in with their dogs.

Even then it's still a concern though, unless they were joking.  Dobes are not easy dogs - especially pups, they are hugely energetic for life and well known as hugely destructive as youngsters (up to and beyond a year sometimes).  When Remy was a pup I spent most of my time following him around to keep him out of trouble and train him, and I still had massive challenges when he hit the teenage months which this pup has yet to hit - it's going to get a heck of a lot harder then!

Nevertheless Nikita, which of us could say we can find an extra 2 hours a day which we didn't expect to have to find on top of everthing else in our lives?  I know I'd struggle.  Had to do it last year actually when my old boy developed heart probs, was on diuretics, needed v. frequent medication, letting out, bedding changes & washing of bedding etc.  Ended up coming out of my kip of course, but that's bad news for your own health.

>which of us could say we can find an extra 2 hours a day which we didn't expect to have to find on top of everthing else in our lives? 

The same way we would if we had a human baby to look after, I suppose. If you need to, and really want to, you do.

jackbox, I think Leejames meant they don't have 2 EXTRA hours to devote to this specific behaviour on top of the other time they put in with their dogs

I read it  differently , the poster said she did not have 2 hrs a day to  devote to the pup???  as she worked from home and did not have the time to  give the pup what it needs.

Puppies don't work by hrs or how many you can devote to them, they are wild inquisitive creatures that are either sleeping or causing mayhem, and from the impression the poster gives, it seems to me they did not take this into consideration.

Hence my suggestion, they return pup to breeder, if they are regretting their buy, its going to get worse before it gets better, and  if they feel overwhelmed now,  they have no chance as the pup grows into a large energetic  dog.

but most babies are ..uuum ..expected tho I would hope Jeangenie ;-)

But much more hard work than you imagine before they arrive, and for far longer than a pup!

In reality you'd be hard pressed to find two hours to devote to work, rather than finding it to devote to the pup.

Just wondering how things are going for the OP?