looking for advice on this please not for me girl got mated on 9 and 10 days, she lives with a boy who shes mated with before but this time has been mated to a different boy to keep a pup,
this morning being 18 days and 8 days from being mated was let out because she finished and never lets the boy she lives with near her past 14 days, he showed intrest in her but she went for him,
not long after was found to be tied with him
the person whos dog it is, cant believe this has happened as she has kept them apart all this time and planned on using a different boy as to keep a puppy to mate with her own boy,
we know that a dog can have multiple pups form different dads, but not sure if it has to be close together like i said was 8 days since last mating
is there a chance she could be pregnant from todays mating they have had pups before together but never mated on day 18 before
any info would be greatful thankyou

Yes it's perfectly possible to have pups from a mating on day 18 (and bitches aren't always receptive on the same days for each season, so always best to keep them away from dogs over 3 weeks) -the only thing that can be done to know who the sire is -one or both- is DNA test all the pups to see who is the father of who.

the only thing that can be done to know who the sire is -one or both- is DNA test all the pups to see who is the father of who.

Or stop the whelp and be more careful next time as you will be forewarned.

ok thnakyou both i was sure that there could be 2 fathers will pass this information on

There cant be two different sires if the matings were 8 days apart. If pups do result then they will be by one or the other, not both and a DNA test will be needed to be sure which dog is the sire.

We've had a bitch stand for a full 20 days (with the same stud) and will not let this happen again as some pups when delivered were clearly a lot younger than others. All lived to be happy and healthy but was a stressful 9 weeks raising the smaller ones.

I'm pretty sure it is not possible for puppies to be different ages?

so maybe if the pups are born from 1st mating then its the first stud dogs pups if any later possible the others but not 100% i know when shes been mated before shes always caught from a day 10 mating

> There cant be two different sires if the matings were 8 days apart.

There just about could be.

A bitch that has been mated before will often be receptive early even before ovulation and the sperm can stay viable for a week.

Just for arguments sake the bitch mated two days before ovulation when the hormone levels were rising.

The ova will not have been in a state to be fertilised for at least 4 days, then the ova will have remained viable for about another 3 days, and of course ovulation itself takes around 24 - 36 hours so another day or so on top.

Obviously if the bitch goes well overdue it is more and more likely whelps from second mating or a combination.

As there have been two dogs mating the bitch the only honest thing to do is DNA test the pups, or stop this litter from proceeding.

For future reference if there is an entire male around I would nver leave my bitch with him until at least a week after the season should end.

Just thinking laterally, if a DNA test proved that there were two different sires to a litter, could you KC register all the pups with their different fathers within the one litter?

would vets dna or would you have to go else where, is it bloods or a saliva sample that they take and would it need to be as soon are pups are born or must you wait till they are bit older
thanks

Just thinking laterally, if a DNA test proved that there were two different sires to a litter, could you KC register all the pups with their different fathers within the one litter?

Yes, providing both sires and the dam are registered.

would vets dna

Don't know if you would have to have a vet do it but would have thought the pup would need to be permanently identified and a witness would need to be present to sign that the cells belonged to that particular puppy, so yes, I assume it would need to be a vet. Anyone can take a swab of cells from the inside on the cheek but in this case the identification would also be needed.

Suppose my answer to your question is I don't know but it has been done and more than once.

The cheek swabs will be done after the pups are 4weeks old, and weaned.

Blood tests can be done at any age, but usually from two weeks onwards, because of weight (I think it's a 10ml blood sample).

Since both makings were 8 days apart, an ultrasound around day 28 with a good scanner, will probably be very informative as to which dog is the sire. The vet I use to scan my bitches is usually spot on with numbers and gestational age.

obviously don't know what breed but could markings/colours help identify which dog is the father?

thankyou all for the replies she will be scanned anyway at 28 days so will see if any info from that, as for the colours maybe he has only had one colour with this girl but other colours with different girls
this new boy is a different colour so hopefully but depends on the gene she carrries

> Just thinking laterally, if a DNA test proved that there were two different sires to a litter, could you KC register all the pups with their different fathers within the one litter?

Yes, it happens occasionally, and in fact in America it is starting to be done deliberately (especially as they AI a lot because of distance)

For example in breeds that have very big litters, we will agree that it is quite a strain on the bitch so to be able to diversify her breeding potential in one litter rather than putting her through two would be an advantage.  Of course financially there would be a disadvantage as there would be two stud fees to pay regardless of outcome, and the cost of the DNA, extra travel to two studs, trying to arrange it all etc. 

Also it has been used as a back up with an older stud perhaps with doubtful fertility being used, but a young stud also so that a whole season (which in some breeds may mean another 10 months wait) is not wasted.

At present a bitch is always potentially going to be able to have less influnce on a gene pool (unless she has well used sons) thanh the average stud dog.

> or must you wait till they are bit older
>

If cheek swabs are to be used the pups need to be weaned, if blood then not, but size of pups and ease of getting a blood sample will have to be taken into account.

This happened to me too about 6 years ago, when the pups were 6 weeks I had them , mum and both potential sires DNA tested as requested by the KC. ( simple cheek swab)
They ended up being sired by the dog I had intended to use, phew!

>There cant be two different sires if the matings were 8 days apart.

When asked, I have always told people that it is actually possible!  :-(

A very interesting thread but i do get confused :) I went to this fertility seminar and this speaker was saying how the eggs are released over xxxhrs, then when they mature (even though they are 'aged' hrs apart) they somehow mature all at once but they didnt know what makes that happen. They did have all the slides out and was very interesting. Anyway re the pups being different ages, they said that is always to do with placentas competing with one another for room. Dont know how true that is but if the eggs implant later on over xxxdays at different times (?) then why arnt all litters at birth different ages?  :/

I can understand varying sizes in a litter making someone think they were fertilized days apart but the truth is there is only so much nutrition to go around and the larger the litter the more chances of seeing smaller pups and still born ones where the placenta failed, there is only so much surface area in the uterus for the placentas to attach to so larger litters less available space. 

When I was working on the Prem unit 30yrs ago we had undiagnosed identical twins arrive over night, the smaller twin was a third of the size of her sister and I questioned that they were identical because they looked nothing alike but the case notes stated only one placenta with 2 cords very close to the centre, one cord was normal but the other one was much thinner and had been attached to the smaller twin.  Well the little one made up for the lack of nutrition in utero when her mum was breast feeding and gained weight rapidly. I bumped into them about a year later and you could not tell them apart, 2 beautiful dark curly haired little girls, Mum said they were a joy to have and she had settled in to caring for 2 babies very easily and was hoping to have another in the next 12 months or so.

So I would keep an open mind that much smaller puppIes were due to later fertilization.  

Thanks Rhodach a very interesting story.

> the larger the litter the more chances of seeing smaller pups and still born ones where the placenta failed, there is only so much surface area in the uterus for the placentas to attach to so larger litters less available space. 

I came across someone recently who says he always opts for an elective C section if he knows the bitch is having a litter of more than 7. That way he doesn't get so many stillborn. But if some of the placentas were failing, wouldn't those whelps have died already anyway? I wonder how near to birth they would die?

Sorry to have taken the thread off course, but it's true that large litters do often have a greater attrition rate and I've wondered myself if there's anything one could do about it. Not that I would want an elective Caesar anyway.

^^ could that be to do with the placentas detaching from the wall and the puppies are in a queue waiting and becoming stressed, is that what the breeder is trying to avoid?

Sorry to have taken the thread off course, but it's true that large litters do often have a greater attrition rate and I've wondered myself if there's anything one could do about it. Not that I would want an elective Caesar anyway.

I'd have thought it would mainly apply to litters of 12 plus and you'd have to question yourself then whether it's fair on the mother to ensure all survived anyway. Nature has many born so that they can afford to have some die. I've had several litters of 9 and ten and only once have I had one pup die -that one was half the size at birth, all the others have always made it so I'd query how common it really is for litters of just over 7 to always have stillborns.

i agree, ive had 9 born and none died,8 born fine too but ive had 13 born and lost 3 at birth and 1 1week later,and this was a small/med girl.

Cheek swabs can be taken before weaning. I took a bitch a long way for a very succesfull mating and called in on the owner of her (the bitches) father on the way home for a break and a cup of tea, locking the bitch in the car. Her wayward father managed to open the drivers door and climb through the dog guard to reach her in the back.... we did not think he had caught her but I DNA tested at 3 days to be sure. Following all the instructions from the KC pack sent out for the purpose. (Both sires were already done as was Mum)
Aileen
PS all pups were from the selected sire Wheww...

> saying how the eggs are released over xxxhrs, then when they mature (even though they are 'aged' hrs apart) they somehow mature all at once but they didnt know what makes that happen.

The eggs may be released over about 2 days and fertilised over the same number plus up to 2 days but they implant in the uterus at about the same time and development continues on from there. 

Puppies won't be the result of being fertilised over a period of more than 3 days, but can be the result of matings over a longer period due to the survival of sperm of at least 4 days but probably a week.

It isn't really that strange as some animals can delay the development of the embryo to ensure all are born at the same time or to have a spare as in Kangaroos where if the joey in the pouch dies it is replaced by the one in 'stasis' in the mothers body.

It is all likely to be due to the correct level of hormones for a given stage in the reproductive cycle.

That is interesting Aileen as optigen instructions for DNA health testing require pups to be weaned/away from Mum for several hours and away from each other too to avoid cross contamination of the sample.

http://www.optigen.com/opt9_chkswbconcerns.html

"***Sampling Puppies****

Cheek swab samples from puppies under about 8 weeks of age - that is, before weaning, are not advised due to the possibility of maternal contamination and/or puppy-to-puppy contamination. OptiGen is not able to detect trace contamination in these samples and clients assume risk of incorrect test result due to contamination of cheek swabs from pups prior to weaning.  If puppies must be tested prior to weaning, a blood sample is strongly advised. "

> could that be to do with the placentas detaching from the wall and the puppies are in a queue waiting and becoming stressed, is that what the breeder is trying to avoid?

I think you could be right.

> ive had 13 born and lost 3 at birth

Same here, and once had 4 stillborn from a litter of 14. Those pups were a similar size to the rest and in some cases bigger.

I don't know why the breeder picked 7+ pups as a cut-off point either. It's not someone I know personally, just came across it on another forum.

May be it's different if it is only to determine  parentage as obviously cross contamination with Mother will not matter as her DNA is part of pups make up and the lab is only looking for rogue DNA from a third party Ie one or other sire.
Anyway thats what we did and they seemed happy though of course I did not need to reg two sires but all pups went off to new homes with DNA profile certificates
Aileen

The AHT cheek swabs for canine parentage also states that the puppies should be at least 4 weeks and weaned. I had my last litter DNA profiled with them, and it's the same process as determining parentage.

well they must have changed it then. It was 6 years ago now
Aileen

>I came across someone recently who says he always opts for an elective C section if he knows the bitch is having a litter of more than 7.

That's really weird, seeing that average litter size (all breeds taken into account) is 8. He's saying that 'the average' bitch should never be allowed to whelp naturally, and that c-sections should be the norm.