We bought a KC Registered CKC puppy locally. We had just lost our last one several months beforehand at over 14yrs so when we went to visit and eventually collect our new puppy from a very nice family I didn't check her mouth because the owner had pointed out all the good points, markings, etc. When we took her for her first injection to our local vet he was on holiday and a locum didn't notice the overbite. On a visit for our second injection our Vet had returned and pointed it out to us and told us we couldn't breed from her. It has been described as a'parrot' mouth which is very bad. We paid the full price for a female puppy and the lady knew we wished to possibly have one litter from her before speying. When we contacted her she said she said she would take her back but at this stage our family was too attached to her to let her go. Later when my husband spoke to the breeder and said how we were very hurt by her offer to take her back. The breeder said she knew we wouldn't wish to give her back but this was what she had been told to offer us...so she was actually offering us nothing for all the heartache of not having a puppy which we could have a litter from and also any problems associated with her bad mouth.We felt fifty pound off would have been a fair amount to request. She has not rung us back on the issue although she was supposed to do so. We have been very upset about all this as we were told that a responsible breeder would have either given her away or in some cases had her put to sleep at birth. Otherwise she is a beautiful puppy and very much loved.

the overshot bite would note be notice able at birth,so they would not have know,and what is a parrot mouth,most bite problem will be seen from 8 week old,or old,

Parrot mouth is a term used among horsey people or at least it used to be means top jaw coming over lower like a parrots beak.
Anne

thank you for that,

To be fair I don't think you can ask any more from the breeder than the offer to have the pup back. Jackie

Some bites do correct themselves too don't they Briedog, even though we worry ourselves to death at the time!!

gollie was a worry at one time but when her adult teeth came though,and her jaw stop growing the bite turn out rigth,if it was wrong she would not have won all wins that she got under her belt.

GSP's are another breed where puppies can be overshot and then it corrects itself.
Vets need shooting sometimes, for the panic they cause over mouths!

Hi guest, difficult one this. Nothing could have been seen at birth as pups are not born with teeth. I feel the first vet was at fault for not noticing it, on her " check up"before her first injection. She may well have left the breeder with a good bite. I expect it was about a month from when you first got her, to when her second injection was due. A pups mouth can change a lot in a month. I understand you dont want to part with the pup, but the breeder did do the right thing in offering to take her back. When you collected your pup from the breeder, did you check her over then? If you did, you must have noticed wether her mouth was correct or not. If it was fine, its not the breeders fault, if it was incorrect, you should have mentioned it at the time.

How old is the puppy? Puppies jaws grow at differing rates so is this excessive or just a normal state of affairs? It would be nice if all vets knew how dogs develop but it is a fact that they don't! I've known some startling bites which have come right as the puppy grew up. (I must also admit I have known a few which have not!)

Regards, John

I was going to say then same!
Her bite may still tighten as she gets older it may not be the tightest of bites but I am sure you shouldn't rule out not breeding from her yet.
I hope it all works out for you....

Hi Guest,

I had the same sort of disappointment with my pup, his bite was ok when we picked him up (it was just about the only thing I did check as I had little experience of the breed standard other than from books).

It looked like the correct bite for the breed at the time. Some time later though it developed into the 'worst bite' a friend of mine said she had ever seen. She also said that he would be useless for showing, which wasn't a problem as he was a pet only and I had no intention to breed from him. So the only problem I had was whether he would be able to eat properly.

By the time he had gone through the teething stage his bite had improved vastly, and is now normal except for one lower incisor missing (5 instead of 6). He did however have trouble teething and had to have 7 of his puppy teeth out when it was obvious that they were not going to drop out on their own :D

Was your intention to show your bitch or just have a litter for fun, if the latter it is best to be happy that you have a lovely pet (I assume she is as you seem to adore her) and forget the breeding if the bite would be passed on.

Sarah and Zak

Hi, it would seem reasonable to assume that as neither you or the first v noticed the bite problem it may have developed in the period between 1st & 2nd injections. Mouths can change at amazingly fast rates. Dont give up hope yet, as they can alos go back the other way when the teeth change (I have had this happen several times with both Cavaliers & American Cockers). Whilst I can understand you disappointment, you cant expect the breeder to be able to see into the future, and the offer to have the puppy back and refund/replace was fare, if unpalatable, because of course she is not just an item of goods, like a washing machine. Lots of breeders would offer some sort of refund at this stage, but there are no hard and fast rules. How about suggesting to the breeder that you monitor the mouth situation, and if at 12/18 months it is still very incorrect then a partial refund for you disappointment would be appropriate.

This sort of thing can get very messy if you opt for the litigation option. For instance, did you have in writing that you had purchased the pup as a potential brood? Did you pay more for her than other pups which were sold solely as pets? Small claims actions in thses sorts of cases can produce widely varying results, and the judge might well consider that the breeders original offer was more than fair.
Gwen

please donot forget that sometime the mouth is ok when the puppy leaves the breeder,but the new owner s do play rug of war or pully games which can result in mouth problam,this is one point that i state no games with pulling in, gwen you stated about the differet price of a puppy,i sell all mine the same price,male.females and colour,and on the contract no 2 it is a condition of this sale and purchase that the puppy was sold as as pet,andthat no warranty can be given as to the ulimate show potential,or working or breeding potenial of the puppy.so all mine are sold as pet then it down to the new owners to what avenue they want to take the puppy down,for a hobbie,show,working agitily,breeding,etc as long as the puppy got a good loving home and well carefore is all i ask,

I think a lot depends on the age of pup we're talking about. Flatcoat puppies with a potentially perfect adult mouth always go overshot about the time the second teeth come though. As John says, it's just a development stage when one jaw grows at a different rate from the other.

True Parrot mouth would be impossible to see until the grown-up teeth come through, and guest - would you be prepared to put down a healthy puppy of 5 months for this???

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I would also expect Dobermanns to be overshot to start with - if they have a tight scissor bite as pups then they will almost certainly be undershot by the time they have finished teething.

The teeth/jaw do not seem to settle into their final positions until at least a year old.

Do we have anyone on the list experienced with CKC's?

Christine

Hi Christine, Yes I have Cav. experience - owned and bred them for 12 years, up until last year, which was one of the reasons I answered this post. It is more common in the breed for the pups to be undershot - reverse bites are common, as heads are being bred for short muzzles. However, in my experience, cav mouths go through amazing changes in a very short period of time. One day you look, and find a perfect bit, the next it is level, and 2 days later you have a reverse scissor. Dont have a lot of experience in actual Parrot mouths in the breed, though. I have seen one or two with a bit of an overshot jaw, but it is not a very common failing. However, it can be a stage they pass through, with the typical uneven growth rates of any pup. If the pup is still a babe, and going through teeth changes and growth, it is certainly too early to give up hope that it will correct, even if only partially.

And whilst not wanting to be too disrespectul to a Vet I dont know, I am sure many breeders will have experienced sweeping statements from Vets concerning faults with pedigree pups being "the worst they have ever seen". When a breed expert gets to look at the pup/dog it is found to be very minor indeed. A lot of vets (as we have discussed on previous threads) are very anti pedigree dogs these days.
Gwen

Think some are just anti-dog. Have to deal with them because it is there bread & butter but don't like them and don't care too much for their owners either. Not my present vet I would add who has dogs himself, not sure how he feels about me though but I do own a credit card, makes all the difference. Ja:)kie

Gwen, I think I'm starting to feel a lot less worried now. My CKC cross pup has an undershot jaw. She is now 3.5 months old and still has all her baby teeth. In fact, this whole thread has given me more hope that her mouth may come right as she grows older :)

Hi, Maiko, at 3.5 months certainly no need to panic yet:)
Gwen

Hi I hope your puppies' bite improves but if it is severe now I doubt that it will. Though this may sound harsh I am afraid that if you were intending to breed /show that you should have checked the mouth before buying her. You will never know now whether the bite was right when you bought her , or not. Although a puppy's mouth can change quite quickly I somehow doubt that if the pup has a pronounced overbite between injections that it was unlikely to be right when you bought her. Although the bite can change - ie a good mouth at eight weeks can turn into one that is "out" by the time the teeth are changed a severe problem will be there at 8 weeks in my experience. The breeder should have pointed it out to you (if they knew) but perhaps they were inexperienced or just hoping you wouldn't look/notice. When buying a puppy with view to breeding the very FIRST thing you do is look in its mouth - not the last!!