A rant from John Rogerson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s850_3s0C8

Some of his opinions are quite contraversial, personally I strongly disagree that family pets are going extinct and that mongrels are disappearing. He might have a point that dogs are not being taught the right things but if more people actually trained their dogs in the first place it would be a start. What do you think?

Strongly disagree, the only pedigree dogs you see in shelters in any number are the ubiquitous staffies (and some of those are doubtful), and other over bred/exploited by fashion ones.

What on earth does he mean that pedigree dogs aren't pets.

Steve Dean stated that of the 8 million UK dogs only around 2.5 million are even Kennel club registered, the only truly pedigree dogs other than a few exceptions like ISDS registered and actual breeds not recognised by the KC.

I switched off after that.

I forwarded this to one of my friends as well after seeing this today on another forum. Being more on the ball than me, she picked up on the fact that this was originally recorded in 2009.
Hopefully he's had a rethink since then!

Still, as you say it was a weird comment to make and I'm not sure I understood what he was really trying to say overall....

It certainly isn't only staffies in rescue.
Collies. labradors,  Greyhounds, GSDs, terriers etc also abound in numbers
I agree with one thing her says, why is everyone so tied up in the breed, how often on here have people asked what
breed we think their dog is because the rescue said it was something and they don't think it is ?
If you want to be certain what breed you have get a pedigree from a reputable breeder, take on a rescue dog
and enjoy what you have.
People in rescue aren't breed experts, they look at a dog and take a guess and yes with rarer breeds they probably
have never heard of them until someone with more knowledge comes along and puts them right

Don't think Brainless meant that there were only Staffies in rescue but rather that there are very few pure breeds. Have looked round many a rescue kennel and most the dogs called Collies are not a collie as I would know one, the Greyhounds are ex-racing the GDS see comment on Collies and terries are not a breed. True you may get the odd pure breed and if you wish they could be handed over to the breed specialists who will know exactly what sort of home each dog required but that is rarely done for some reason a large number of rescue kennels seem unable to notify and hand over a dog to the people who know best.

> why is everyone so tied up in the breed, how often on here have people asked what
> breed we think their dog is because the rescue said it was something and they don't think it is ?
>

Well, that's the whole point of there being breeds of dog, the breed gives you some insight into the probable chracteristics of the dog :)

How to make friends and influence people!

Terriers come in various guises and many of them are pedigree breeds !!! Ok so Jack Russells aren't recognised by the KC but many of their pedigress can be traced back, I assume this is what you are refering to as I never mentioned a particular terrier type, border terriers are becoming quite common these days

Mastiff lover, my pouint exactly, if you want the characteristics of a certain breed then either get one from a reputable breeder or breed rescue, if you're going to general rescure then accept the dog for what it is on the surface

How to make friends and influence people has never really worried me that much !!!!

Ingrid,        How to make friends and influence people has never really worried me that much !!!!

this was not aimed at yourself it was the subject of the post I was writing this for! lol

As I said the majority of the dogs in general rescue will be of no breed or poorly bred and over exploited popular breeds. 

When a well bred example of a breed turns up in rescue it stands out a mile and probably has a very worried breeder should they be contacted.

Basically the rescues contain the fruits of owner and breeder (I use the term to cover anyone who has bred a litter, not what we would wish breeders all were) irresponsibility.

Surely puppies should only be bred by responsible breeders who take responsibility for the puppies they produce beyond the date of sale, and these should only be owned by people prepared to take responsibility for their pets through all the usual things life normally brings, new babies, work commitments etc, and only totally unforeseen circumstances would force a re-homing.

I base my definiton of a 'pedigree dog' as does Canadian law, a dog that is kennel club or equivalent registered.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/canadian_laws.htm

"What is a "Purebred" Dog?
Defined by the Canada Animal Pedigree Act, a purebred dog is a dog that has parents of the same breed that are registered with the Canadian Kennel Club.  One can NOT sell a dog as purebred without papers from the registry as well it is ILLEGAL in Canada to charge extra money for those papers! 



Dogs with parents of two different purebreds does NOT make the dog a purebred, lately we see fancy new names for mutts aka the 'doodles', 'bugs', 'morkies', etc these mixes, aka mutts, they are not purebred, no matter what they tell you, they are sure cute, but are NOT purebred.  There also some newer registries that are not very strict and will simply allow any dog to be registered, be careful and be aware and educate yourself."

Perhaps the true pedigree dog breeder in the UK would get less of a bashing if that definiton was used to identify pedigree dogs.

> if you want the characteristics of a certain breed then either get one from a reputable breeder or breed rescue,........

Yes, I see what you mean, but what I meant was that if somebody has got a dog from a rescue and they ask what breed people think it is,  they are asking as if the breed can pin-pointed they will know more about the dogs possible characteristics/health concerns than if they don't know what breed it is. They obviously allready have no problem taking on a dog with an unknown parantage and/or unpredictable behaviour traits (unpredicatble in the sense that the breed is not known or not certain), but a 'head-ups' always helps and/or is interesting to know :)

I was commenting on this part:

> why is everyone so tied up in the breed, how often on here have people asked what breed we think their dog is because the rescue said it was something and they don't think it is ?

Yes ceretain breeds do have certains traits but when you take on a rescue dog you also have to take into account it's upbringing, the old nature versus nurture can make a huge difference.
With regards well bred dogs and breeders well I have had an example of a supposedly well bred dog that came to me through breed rescue as the breeder wasn't interested when it needed rehoming.
Would be nice to think that everyone that bred a litter of pups regardless would take a lifetime interest but sadly that isn't the case, which brings me to another part  of his statement, perhaps if all puppies had to be identified by either tattoo or chip and the original breeder made responsible it would stop all these rediculous designer crosses and indiscriminate breeding

I would hope that these days good breeders always permanently identify their puppies for their own peace of mind, I have done so with every puppy I have bred (since 1995) knowing that sometimes new owners will put dogs into rescue without telling the breeder.

Sadly like people in all walks fall between the most responsible to the downright feckless.

I do agree with this statement though: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

"The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating.



The majority of homeless or abandoned dogs come from this category in many popular breeds and mixes, they are often destroyed in pounds. Most are sold locally through newspaper ads - the responsibility ends when the purchaser's taillights disappear from sight.



Many back yard breeders do not have the knowledge to properly raise a healthy, socialized litter, or to help the new owner with any problems that might arise.



Back yard breeders may act on a desire to make extra money, or simply out of ignorance. Sometimes back yard breeders will breed so "their children can experience the miracle of birth", or they mistakenly believe "every dog should have one litter." They may think their dog is so cute, he/she would make wonderful puppies, with little or no thought for the homes to which their puppies will go. Other back yard breeders see how much money legitimate breeders charge for pups and figure they could make some "easy money" too. Or, a back yard breeder may have a completely unplanned litter by accident.



Back yard breeders usually bring two breeding animals together regardless of their quality. They are not interested in scientific breeding. Their aim is to fulfill a personal need or goal, not to improve the breed and bring excellent quality dogs to the world. Since breed excellence is generally unimportant, the breeding dogs generally will not have been tested for genetic and health problems.



Back yard breeders are not necessarily bad people, they often come from middle to upper income families, and their dogs can be well loved and kept. However, getting a pup from a back yard breeder is a gamble:

the parents likely have not been screened for health problems

puppies usually are not sold with contracts and no future support to the buyer

the breeders are not in it for the long haul

They will be working on new personal objectives in five years when your pet has a problem and you need help.

Although you might pay less for the breed of your choice from a back yard breeder, it's almost a given that in the long run, you'll pay a good deal more in vet bills and perhaps emotional bills (if the dog has to be euthanized due to a health or temperament problem), than you would from a reputable breeder."

Not going to argue with that, together with the puppy farms that churn out far too many pups and dump the bitches when the are passed their breeding time.
If they were allamde responsible for the life of the pups then it may help, better then dog licences which will once again hiit the law abiding, but in the same issue who would police either ?

Love John been on lots of his courses but would question when was the last tiime he handled a guide dog? I have a blind lady in my group who trains her own dogs as her last guide dog was so badly behaved after 5 years struggling she has sent him back. He would toilet in the middle of roads, chae cats, jump at visitors, mouth visitors. His lead work was a disgrace, one seond leading the next behind and this lady has had several guide dogs over the years and is an extremely good dog handler and trainer herself. There are a rather large group of blind people who are currently campaigning GDforB about the LACK of good training in their dogs!! Has been ongoing for several years.

I understand where John is coming from though regarding children and the separartion in society but think rather than hitting training classes it should be part of school curriculum how tobehaviour towards animals in general. I don't think trainers can aim classes towards changing society but schooling can go a long way towards it.

AS for pedigree dogs, agree that pedigrees come with papers,got 4 dogs only 1 with papers all defo collies but I own only 1 pedigree!! And I love them all the same. Think about time we had more mongrels around but if not happening would rather see more dogs with good papers than anything else. Sick to death of seeing designers crosses which rarely make good pet dogs in my own experience.

> after 5 years struggling she has sent him back.

After 5 years in the hands of "an extremely good dog handler and trainer" I'm not sure she can still blame the GDB :) 

> >
> I do agree with this statement though: [url=http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm" rel=nofollow]http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm[/url]
>
> "The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating.
>
>
>
> The majority of homeless or abandoned dogs come from this category in many popular breeds and mixes, they are often destroyed in pounds. Most are sold locally through newspaper ads - the responsibility ends when the purchaser's taillights disappear from sight.
>
>
>
> Many back yard breeders do not have the knowledge to properly raise a healthy, socialized litter, or to help the new owner with any problems that might arise.
>
>
>
> Back yard breeders may act on a desire to make extra money, or simply out of ignorance. Sometimes back yard breeders will breed so "their children can experience the miracle of birth", or they mistakenly believe "every dog should have one litter." They may think their dog is so cute, he/she would make wonderful puppies, with little or no thought for the homes to which their puppies will go. Other back yard breeders see how much money legitimate breeders charge for pups and figure they could make some "easy money" too. Or, a back yard breeder may have a completely unplanned litter by accident.
>
>
>
> Back yard breeders usually bring two breeding animals together regardless of their quality. They are not interested in scientific breeding. Their aim is to fulfill a personal need or goal, not to improve the breed and bring excellent quality dogs to the world. Since breed excellence is generally unimportant, the breeding dogs generally will not have been tested for genetic and health problems.
>
>
>
> Back yard breeders are not necessarily bad people, they often come from middle to upper income families, and their dogs can be well loved and kept. However, getting a pup from a back yard breeder is a gamble:
>
> the parents likely have not been screened for health problems
>
> puppies usually are not sold with contracts and no future support to the buyer
>
> the breeders are not in it for the long haul
>
> They will be working on new personal objectives in five years when your pet has a problem and you need help.
>
> Although you might pay less for the breed of your choice from a back yard breeder, it's almost a given that in the long run, you'll pay a good deal more in vet bills and perhaps emotional bills (if the dog has to be euthanized due to a health or temperament problem), than you would from a reputable breeder."

I agree with all of this, even if puppy farms are cracked down on, the BYB will be harder to deal with. None of the proposals I seen yet will realistically have an inpact on this group. Unfortunatly half the problem is they GENUINELY can't see that there is a problem.

As far as I'm concerned, there would be far fewer dogs in shelters/rescue if buyers were prepared to THINK before they buy a dog as to what, if any, type of dog would be suitable for them. Pedigrees are reasonably predictable, crossbreeds and mongrels are not and in a world where more is expected from dogs than ever before, this is surely an important consideration.

> I agree with all of this, even if puppy farms are cracked down on, the BYB will be harder to deal with. None of the proposals I seen yet will realistically have an inpact on this group. Unfortunatly half the problem is they GENUINELY can't see that there is a problem.
>
>

and the bigger problem is that the average not thinking outside the box pet buyer will think that kind of breeder is actually the biggest kind, breeding pets from their pet.

They do that because they want a dog and they want it now, most good breeders have a waiting list and don't just churn out puppies and the average buyer wants a puppy for their kid almost immediately :o(
Put a search in for puppies for sale and see the amount of sites that come up from just such places, it makes my blood run cold at times, then the amount of very young dogs that need rehoming through no fault of their own/
Unfortunately these people just don't wany to know ot be educated

Stooge yes she can!! His first taining was with them, his breeding is due to them!! They sent out a dog that toileted in oncoming traffic!! That is lethal!! The guide dogs these days are poorly trained, I have worked with several guide dog trainers and found they had a lack of simple knowledge of where to time rewards, how to position rewards and that their poor poisitioning was leading to dogs crossing over handlers fronts!! People falling over guide dogs is poor!! Dogs leaping at people poor!! She sent him back and they retired him immediately,he is still at a workable age but the easy answer is to rehome him. They do not have time to retrain mistakes puppy walkers put in place and his breeding leaves a lot to be desired. This lady is now training her own dogs and currently has 3, 2 of whom are going to other sighted services and have been appraised already. They are happy with her work so it is not a handler issue at all. This lady had several dogs from guide dogs the last being exactly that!! The last from them!!

> His first taining was with them, his breeding is due to them!!

I think this may be a case of nature not nurture as she had him for five years and given that you say she is a good dog trainer herself.

> She sent him back and they retired him immediately,he is still at a workable age but the easy answer is to rehome him.

I think if someone who is a good dog trainer could not cope with him this surely has to be the sensible choice as much as the easy one :)

>They do not have time to retrain mistakes puppy walkers put in place

My experience of how they work is continuous assessment and assistance with early training whilst with puppy walkers so mistakes are worked on from the outset.  My friend had one with toileting problems and received a lot of input over it.
They also need to pass out from their guiding training, it is not just a question of making do with what you end up with.

To be honest after five years in her ownership it is surely a little hard to say this is down to the early training but on the other hand they should have been able to help her with him or to sort her out with an more appropriate dog earlier on.