Hi all,

I only get Our Dogs so don't know - do the submitted show critiques go into both newspapers on the same week? 

TIA :-)

Not necessarily. Sometimes same week, sometimes weeks apart, sometimes they only go in one.

sometimes they only go in one.

what a con! I really don't want to take two papers p/w, I barely have time to read one. 

I can't believe, having paid good money to enter a show that not only might a critique take a variable amount of time to be published, but that it might not even be published in both papers.

Can the show secs of shows tell you which paper they'll be in, or do they archive them themselves?

They are almost invariably sent to both papers and Our Dogs usually prints what is submitted, Dog World has a habit of editing and not always conveying the thoughts of the judge as expressed because in critique speak even one word removed can alter the meaning of the sentence.

KC rules say that a judge has to submit to at least one weekly paper. I suspect most judges submit to both but it may not be the case all the time.
No a secretary wont be able to say which one & yes they may, if they receive critques.
You will have to just plump for one or the other.
The time factor cant be avoided, as a judge has a month to submit their critique then its upto the paper, as to when they publish it!

My dog was placed 2nd in his class at a show recently, after a very long hard look by the judge, and the judge asked for both is us (1 and 2) to remain in the ring why whilst he wrote a critique.  I was keen to read the crit as he seemed a very thorough judge and I was hoping to learn what he had been looking for/at.  Sadly DW only printed the crits for first place.  I assumed from reading  CD that this is normal for that paper!  Shame though as I would have bought Our Dogs if I had known when they were published.  I do wish there was a way to find out...

PM me the show and your breed and I will look and see if Our Dogs have published it yet, if they have I will let you know what was said.

Shame though as I would have bought Our Dogs if I had known when they were published.  I do wish there was a way to find out...

Tell me the name of the show, the breed and the class and I'll have a look.

Dog World has a habit of editing and not always conveying the thoughts of the judge as expressed because in critique speak even one word removed can alter the meaning of the sentence.

Heck! it gets worse!

I do wish there was a way to find out...

Tell me the name of the show, the breed and the class and I'll have a look

This is mad!  I read another critique thread where another kind person was offering to look up the missing crits in the KC archives. 

In my simple little mind, if you pay your show fees and are lucky enough to win a place, your judge's critique is your reward and belongs to you.  Getting sight of it shouldn't be so haphazard.

I think many serious exhibitors take both papers to play safe -and there's lots to read in both anyway, that's not the same in each. I couldn't imagine not having both. If you have the online access for Our Dogs you can also look up critiques going back quite a few years.

I too would always read both - some people share with a friend - i.e. one does Our Dogs and the other DW and then swap :)

I read another critique thread where another kind person was offering to look up the missing crits in the KC archives.

Not sure about this a copy does not go to the KC although they would have an archive of the two dog papers.

However I have offered twice and someone else has also offered to look and see if the Our Dogs have published it as yet but you do need to tell us the show, the breed, and the class. I am sure both myself and the other person who offered would be pleased to help but it is down to you to tell us the details rather than getting yourself upset.

Edit to say info received will take a look for you

PM sent - it was good folks so incase Saffronsmith is over come with modesty here it is

Hungarian Wire Haired Vizsla Open (5)

2 Stockwell's Leiborschy Syrus.  Super typy youngster, well balanced, good bone and rear angulation, but not overdone.  Good outer and undercoat, moved with drive and pushed hard for BOB.  Another one with a good future ahead which I shall watch with interest.

Congratulations

Thanks Jackie - that was my wire.  (I'm not sure what breed saffronsmith has)  Sorry for the confusion

I forget, real names, CD names, family names - just don't spring anything complicated on me - like my age :)   1, 2, 3, 40 something ???

Rebecca x

> PM sent - it was good folks so incase Saffronsmith is over come with modesty here it is
>
> Hungarian Wire Haired Vizsla Open (5)
>
> 2 Stockwell's Leiborschy Syrus.  Super typy youngster, well balanced, good bone and rear angulation, but not overdone.  Good outer and undercoat, moved with drive and pushed hard for BOB.  Another one with a good future ahead which I shall watch with interest.
>
> Congratulations

What a shame it wasn't published in the paper you bought as it's such a great crit, many congratulations though :)

> What a shame it wasn't published in the paper you bought as it's such a great crit, many congratulations though

Thank you - he's a poppet :)  He's was just 12 months at this show and had been stung by a bee earlier in the day, poor chap, so I'm not sure he thought it was a totally good day  

For the last five years I've only ever bought DW and genuinely didn't realise that I might have missed out.  As someone else has said a one or two word change can make such a difference and again, I didn't realise that DW edit their crits...

I might try the online version or Our Dogs

I subscribe to Dog World - paper and you get online too and Our Dogs online only just in case I miss a critique, however there have been several from this year that haven't been in either, quite a few from last year too!!  Been doing this for over 20 years alltogether and loads have never been in either paper.

did anyone mention that on some occasions they never appear in either paper!!

I agree with you - and I think that if the show world wants to be taken seriously, the critique situation needs to be sorted out.
By the way, it was me who took requests to look up the missing critiques at the KC library. Out of the 30 odd I looked for from a range of breeds, I found just a handful. It was very poor.

you know Roni I was pondering this recently - a letter in DW prompted it too - the way we just accept we may not get a critique - should we ?  the letter in dog world urges us to write to the kc and to the show society and oust these judges that continue to accept appointments and not fulfil the duties they sign up to

I know I have lost count of the number not received and handling well - a lot just don't bother at all...  I am particularly disappointed at no critique for our first group place (judge also did breed) - but I know for sure it never got submitted due (through mutual friend)

Trouble is I still don't know if it is always the judges or the papers at fault?  Do they print all the receive or at some point stop bothering ? what is the timescale for an open critique to appear in the paper.

What do we do though? Accept or act - act how?

LOL, that has happened to us when my youngest boy went BIS under a certain editor at a limit show...if he can't get the critique in his own paper what hope is there...

Trouble is I still don't know if it is always the judges or the papers at fault?  Do they print all the receive or at some point stop bothering ? what is the timescale for an open critique to appear in the paper.

Again OD seems to be better. At times you see critiques almost a year old for champ shows, and open shows certainly a few months down the line, whereas DW state they cannot publish open show critiques if it is more than a month later.

Why is it the shows that you do well at seem to be the ones that never appear.. We had a good first at a big champ show early in the year that never got printed (so far) and also a BOB and Group3 that we have never seen.  Of course the shows where we were binned are in really quick LOL

Really believe that it is at least 90% the fault of judges, they either do not write it at all or they send it late with no reason given and the papers don't print.

The papers, particularly DW, do not help with this as they are very restrictive and will prune if, in their opinion, you have used too many words, it is this attitude that leads to the (good head, nice neck, level topline and moves well) type of critique and most judges would wish to say what they saw in more detail which is not always possible in the few words allowed especially if it is an open show.

Now as most of us buy the papers to look for adverts for forthcoming shows (now not many because of the cost) and the critiques I think a little more room should perhaps be given to allow, and encourage, judges to tell us what they found in the dogs they placed.

You want to say why you liked the head and perhaps what could have been better but you know it will not always be printed so you start not to bother. I can imagine that if you judge a lot you may decide that it is a waste of your time as what you are forced to write is pointless and so you stop bothering. Would like to state I have never not written a critique but have at times been shocked at the amount of editing that is done.

One more thing, I like it when a judge points out the more general things they find, like an improvement in dentition or a tendency to over angulation and think this is best done as a preamble rather than during the comments on an individual dog as often if you find a problem it does not apply to your winners but it does need mentioning for the sake of the breed as a whole.

i email a critique to both dog world and ours dogs in the same email it has taken two weeks for it to appear in this weeks dog world it still has not appeared in our dogs and yes they edited it as when the second was a pup i did a critique but they did not publish it and group winners i said name and breed only breed published the av classes i used full names they shortened them down as well

It does seem to happen, I sent critique by e-mail to both papers two days after the show when the main set of critiques were published and mine had not appeared I contacted them and they said they had not received them but would publish mine if I sent it again. I did and they did but as both e-mails apparently went missing I can't think it was the papers but it does seem odd.

I had a subscription to Our Dogs online and still didn't see more than 3 critiques for my middle bitch :(  Despite her going RCC and RBIS at our Breed club Ch show :(  The critiques I did see were simply a list of points :( 

The youngest one I have never seen a critique - even when she went BPIS and her brother went RBPIS at the breed club  Ch Show  :(

Gave up the Online subscription and refuse to buy any of the papers now, I only bought them to read the critiques really as have little time for reading them through.

There's an internet opportunity there for someone who is willing to publish full critiques.

There's an internet opportunity there for someone who is willing to publish full critiques.
Already exists! It's just a question of getting the judges to submit. Dog.biz publishes critiques and Teri from here on CD for instance put hers on just a couple of days after a show she judged.

Perhaps it needs wider publicity?  

Or are Judges becoming so disillusioned at having their critiques hacked about and even disappearing that they can't be bothered any more?  And who can blame them?  

> In my simple little mind, if you pay your show fees and are lucky enough to win a place, your judge's critique is your reward and belongs to you.  Getting sight of it shouldn't be so haphazard.

and if your in the USA they don't do critiques.

In an effort to improve sales the dog papers seem to be filling their papers with 'new' initiatives, two or three pages of junior handling, Irish and other overseas shows, heel work to music etc. Very interesting to those minority groups if you want that kind of thing.

But unless Ive been on another planet for the last 30+ years I thought the majority of dog people took the paper for the breed notes and the show critiques. Squeezing them any further is counter productive IMO

Dog.biz publishes critiques

I've looked for our breed in the past and from the critiques available it's pretty obvious that they've been put up by the owner rather than the judge :)

In an effort to improve sales the dog papers seem to be filling their papers with 'new' initiatives, two or three pages of junior handling, Irish and other overseas shows, heel work to music etc. Very interesting to those minority groups if you want that kind of thing.

Much the same as was done with Our Cats. Lots of stories about moggies, overseas rescues, lions and tigers etc. Result: the paper folded due to lack of subscribers and we now don't have one for critiques etc at all. On a positive note we instead get the critiques for free online on the GCCF website. Shame for those without internet access though!

> sometimes they only go in one.

Well it's a good job I didnt win anything in my breed at City of Brum as I have just found out that the crit was in OD a month ago not been in DW at all.

I do like to read crits for my own breed, for all champ shows(& some of the more local shows, even if its just to see what a judge has placed).

I know this does happen, probably more than I know, as I have been in the show game for 30+ years now but its so easy to email both papers nowadays. If I knew the judge more I would/may have asked her, if she submitted to both papers.

I often wondered why we cannot have our critiques given to us on the day as they do in Europe, you pay for the judges opinion and over there you get it, on the day in your hand.  I've always had good critiques that have praised and pointed out bad points and they are often a decent paragraph, written with your dog stood in front of them.  Yes it can make the judging take a little longer but that can be addressed by putting fewer breeds in the same ring etc.

> I often wondered why we cannot have our critiques given to us on the day as they do in Europe, you pay for the judges opinion and over there you get it, on the day in your hand.  I've always had good critiques that have praised and pointed out bad points and they are often a decent paragraph, written with your dog stood in front of them.  Yes it can make the judging take a little longer but that can be addressed by putting fewer breeds in the same ring etc.

This would be impossible with breeds with larger entries..my breed attracts entries of 150-220 at champ shows, with more at breed shows...there are occasions, where the BOB has to rush to group as it is, without the time of a verbal crit too.

It could be done for the first two as is now.

The judge would have a duplicate/Triplicate standardised Critique pad, top copy is given to the exhibitor, second copy to the Society and the last kept by judge to do their Dog paper critique. 

What would appear in the paper would be more of an expansion on the current preamble that is more useful  to breeders and exhibitors pointing out the strengths, weaknesses and  overall state of the breed based on that entry.

The exhibitor would have the judges opinion, to keep to themselves or share as they see fit.  This would mean the judge could be more forthright, as exhibitors would be happy for a more critical/honest opinion in private than they would be seen published.

Along with grading of all exhibits, those not placed or lower than 2nd would still have an idea of the judges opinion of their dogs quality

I too am not renewing our dogs it's taken months for my breeds write ups to appear in it when its been in dog world within the month.

It will happen the other way round as well Boody, they seem to do the main bulk of reports and anything coming in late gets poked in when they have the space to spare.

I used to agree with that nova but the past 10 months our dogs have been naff, also dog world but them up on the net before they are in the paper now.

Ah, well I have the physical copy of DW and on line for OD but I am fed up with both as they seem to be drifting away from the old format of providing info for those interested in breeds in particular onto the general dog owning public. Nothing against the general dog owning public but they have plenty of magazines catering for the pet dog market already and we are slowly being edged out. They cost too much to find you are only reading about half a page of each copy.

I agree nova, also another negative with our dogs is their mobile site is terrible.