Sorry for the slightly inflammatory heading but couldn't think how else to phrase it.
Attended a well run Open show at the weekend and, should make it clear I had nothing entered, sat down to watch the judging with interest and few good friends. Over the last 2 to 3 months I have done this a few times as, until recently, I have had nothing to show. Many many times I have seen far too many judges giving first prizes to dogs that simply did not deserve to win their classes. Dogs that won't/can't move, covered in hotspots, shying away, atypical - the list goes on- and I am at a loss to understand why? The other dogs in these classes may not be CC winners but time and time again I see good, honest dogs overlooked.
What can we do?
jeff.
   

Jeff have to agree with you on this one. Personally I would love to see some sort of Ombudsman within dogshowing as judging is getting more bent than ever, not always but the majority of time. Good honest judges are like gold dust and few and far between. And in this day and age its just getting too expensive to be going to shows to simply make the numbers up. I show in both the UK and Ireland and have to say Ireland is particulary bad!

i'm assuming you are talking about non -breed specialists here?  and there lies the problem imo.  far too many people judging breeds they have no interest or knowledge in.  I showed  a pup under one such judge (fairly well known all rounder)  in his write up he described  the dog as  a tri  , he's golden sable a slight difference.

Think the problem is judging is subjective - we all want honest judges but what can one do about judges that are honest but insist on doing their own thing - right or wrong. Will hold up my hand to falling into that category, you can tell me I am a bad judge (ie I do not chose the exhibit you would have done) but never call me dishonest because I always place the way I see it and what I see is the dog and not the handler.

Do however agree that placing lame or otherwise unsound dogs above those who are sound if not particularly impressive is wrong but wonder if it is a case of not being aware rather than a deliberate choice. I don't think I have ever placed an unsound dog but those at the ringside may say different.

in his write up he described  the dog as  a tri  , he's golden sable a slight difference.

A minor problem surely - coat colour has no effect on the conformation, movement or fitness of the dog to fulfil its purpose. Irritating but hardly the sort of thing the OP was referring to.

I have no problem with honest judging as with human nature we can't all agree on everything but I do have a problem with political judging, face judging, unsound animals being put up.

Jeff ,know what you mean,when yesterday I witnessed the judge trying her best to give BOB to the puppy that was out of her own sire. The puppy mis-behaved and would,nt move no matter how many times the judge asked it to be moved. So she had to settle for giving it RBOB over a quality dog that she brought back in for the challenge.

On the other hand I witnessed a blatant attempt to influence the BIS judge at a recent open show.
Owner leaning over the judge whilst she was at lunch telling her all the wins his dog has had (and to be fair they were many and varied) - she had just given said dog the puppy group....but was still to judge BPIS.

In the ring the judge went over every dog and promptly gave my puppy BPIS - I dont know her - never spoken to her!

> I witnessed the judge trying her best to give BOB to the puppy that was out of her own sire. The puppy mis-behaved and would,nt move no matter how many times the judge asked it to be moved

Neither of which would bother me.

Some stud dogs have many progeny and if they all stayed away very poor entries would ensue and I have no problem putting up a naughty puppy with quality.

. The puppy mis-behaved and would,nt move no matter how many times the judge asked it to be moved

The judge wouldn't necessarily know the breeding in advance. And a puppy being a puppy -shows can be overwhelming and a good judge should make allowances. Sounds like this judge was worth their salt as they didn't give the top award to the dog they may have felt was the best, on account on not being able to assess movement properly. I had the same myself not that long ago. My pup refused to move properly, and the judge had a quiet word in the ring and said I liked your bitch pup better than the winning dog pup but I cannot give yours BP due to not being able to see the movement well enough. I felt that was very fair.

On the other hand I witnessed a blatant attempt to influence the BIS judge at a recent open show.

I'll never understand people as desperate as that -and it's so unfair to the judge. Imagine if their puppy was the best, the judge then really couldn't put it up without people talking. In my main breed it's unusual to NOT know the judge as we all tend to know each other within the breed, and so at shows I actively avoid the judge until it's all finished and don't even say hello until then.

The puppy mis-behaved and would,nt move no matter how many times the judge asked it to be moved

Agree with Goldmali, any judge worth their salt would try to get the best from an exhibit by re-moving or trying to re-examine particularly with a young animal who may need time to settle. It is always sad to find something you really like deciding they won't move for their handler.

Marriane, the judge did know the breeding in advance,because I was told by the owner of BOB ,who was also owner of RBOB that she had been talking to the judge the day before on the phone and how nervous she was about doing it.

Dogbody, most judges will know the breeding of the dogs under them unless it is a huge entry, you cant help it.

I,m not disputing that Nova,its the fact that these two people are friends and did it so blatantly.

did it so blatantly.

Just re-read your post, are you saying that the judge and her friend rang one another up the day before the show and arranged for the puppy to be given BOB although the judge was nervous to do so, and then the friend told you this at the show?

Jeff,

I'm at a loss too with regards to this. I think I posted not so long ago something similar, I can't get my head around any dog that is unsound being placed at all. An unsound dog is not fit for purpose or fit for function and should either go unplaced or be asked to leave the ring...

Someone told me that a judge placed a dog ahead of theirs in the group stages which was unsound - possibly at the same open show you were at? I wasn't there so can't comment, but have seen many dogs being placed, some even getting CC's and BOB's which clearly have issues with their movement..

That is how I understood it Nova.  Jeff I would'nt say the puppy was unsound,it just would'nt co-operate with its handler and this was not its first show it has been like it at other shows too.

There are some that have a backbone & I have ALWAYS judged the dog & regardless of it's handler, place it where I think it should be or not placed it at all, if that is the case.
I personally treat each appointment, as if it is my last because one day it might just be! I stay true to myself that way.

That is how I understood it Nova.

So these remarks were made to you in person, did anyone else over hear or was there other told the same thing?

Hi Dogsbody,
I think we have crossed lines somewhere :-)
Jeff.

Hi Jeff, think I have misunderstood something also.

However I think you were referring to judges putting up unsound examples of the breed over sound ones, in other words placing unsound animals who were otherwise good and ignoring perhaps less good dogs who were sound. If that is what you meant then I do agree with you, a dog however good in type and quality, if unsound should not be placed over another example of type who does not have the quality.

in his write up he described  the dog as  a tri  , he's golden sable a slight difference.

A minor problem surely - coat colour has no effect on the conformation, movement or fitness of the dog to fulfil its purpose. Irritating but hardly the sort of thing the OP was referring to.

my misunderstanding  as OP did mention hotspots

Hi Nova,

Unfortunately the worst of both cases.
This is not addressed to you Nova just "out there" generally - but I see judges making very basic mistakes month in month out. Where are we going wrong and how can we fix it?
Jeff.

I think part of the problem is the way our show system is organised - in days gone by we had a several layers  of shows starting with Exemption, moving up to Limited and  Open and finishing with Champ shows - an upcoming all rounder  judge could 'cut their teeth' at the lower levels with a good selection of dogs to go over - now very few Open shows have the classification they used to have and the opportunity for assessing a breed in both quantity and quality only really comes at Champ level - I have a youngster who will be  6 months in a couple of weeks time and I'm having to put him into AVNSC classes at several shows throughout the winter just to get him used to showing  because there are no breed classes available - he in all probability will be the only puppy of his breed there and will be judged by  non breed specialists who quite frankly will not know if he is a good one or not - and to be fair how can they know unless there are others of his breed and age to compare him to ?- no wonder they flounder and ignore breed type for generic 'flash and dash' - I honestly don't think most judges are dishonest they just hav'nt had their hands on enough dogs to know the difference betweeen a good'un and a bad'un - of course rewarding an unsound dog is a whole different ball game !! ;)

Couldn't agree more. I have (lets just say recently) judged and in one class of 4 on my first look around immediately did not like one dog as it had a back that could have been used as a ski slope, (our breed standard calls for a level topline). Going over the dog didn't make me change my mind on its quality, so it got 4 out of 4. Later on, looking through my catalogue, I see the name of the dog and realise that it is a dog that I have seen being shown by its breeder that I have not liked the look of when seeing it be shown and wondered why the breeder (a big name) has ever shown it as it always has that ski slope back. Looking through its show results I see that not only has it had firsts at Champ shows but has its stud book number when shown by the breeder. Now I still see myself as someone that still has plenty more to learn but if I can see this claring fault then why can't other judges or is it that they are too scared to upset the breeder. As you say, no backbone. Sad.

You would need to take away the ability to 'scratch' each others back.  I stopped showing roughly 10 years ago for this very reason.  I got fed up travelling the lenght of the country when myself and another respected breeder could sit on the phone the evening before the show and mark up the catalogue!!  We knew who was getting what with the tickets everytime and it was only among the 'flashy' breeders and their friends.  None of the rest of us got a look in.  And the killer came for me when this breeder told me personally that if my dog were his, he's have made him a CH several times over by then.  I never set foot in a show again.  I've saved a fortune and my weekends are now spent baggin munros but I miss the 'show'.  I don't miss the people as I am still very much involved with all things doggie and my breed but until the showing is less facey, I won't enter again.

You could try doing it like the cats?  Bare cages?  Or maybe one handler for the entire class so you don't know which dog is which?  Or maybe judges are not allowed to show so they aren't going to get anything back?  Or people that show, can't judge(that won't work as partners/friends could get involved then).  Ha, theres a few to be getting on with anyway.

Do think the inability of judges to be able to judge a good number of dogs at Open level is a problem and no doubt started when the KC penalised clubs for not reaching the required numbers per class, the result was a large number of breeds were dropped and those that were left only had 1 or 2 classes and judges were expected to judge several breeds. Now with the cost of travelling, judges want to judge several breeds so we do seem to be on a downward trend as far as producing experienced judges is concerned.

Good post Cracar and sadly very true in some breeds!

Hi All,

Having read the posts on this thread I should try and clarify. I was going to post yesterday but decided not to then after a telephone conversation with a friend this morning was full of indignation on a separate matter, which hopefully you will understand if you have seen my other topic.
I realise that the term "crooked" is subjective but I don't think much of the judging I have seen and am commenting on over the last few months can be classed as such - certainly not by me. There will always be those who judge to the wrong agenda - I am a realist on  that front - they do the hobby no favours and we must vote with our feet. Of course I like to win - I am a competitive type but I have often said I would prefer to breed the best dogs and never win rather than breed poor dogs and win lots.
What I am seeing is not a case of "back scratching" just poor judging. I agree with Marianne if the best exhibit is not the best schooled so what - quality should count. It is more a case of judges not making the basic, obvious decisions. Almost the opposite of what Marianne spoke of - smart, confident exhibitor with a dog who may have merits but is not the best on the day and far too many judges seem to be unable to make common sense judgements.
I am not talking about differences of opinion here, that we must all accept and personally it is one of the things that keeps my going to shows.
Jeff.       

I wrote a critique for a show some time ago where I said "very much a study in type-v-movement....there were those who had type but didnt move too well and those who lacked type but moved well".

At that show some exhibits also entered variety classes and that judge reversed some of my decisions...
Now does that make me right or the variety ( no specialist judge) right?
I considered one or two of the exhibits to be very poor indeed yet they won variety classes because they were well marked and moved well but utterly lacking in breed essentials

Im sure those handlers felt that I was facey and the other judge full of integrity.

That is a decision that we make but I am not talking about type-v-movement, the breeds I have watched are not my own. I am taking about REALLY basic stuff that seems to keep getting missed.

I got fed up travelling the lenght of the country when myself and another respected breeder could sit on the phone the evening before the show and mark up the catalogue!!

To be fair that doesn't have to mean there's anything wrong with the judge. I have many times myself worked out who would be entered at a show and who would win what, before arriving at the show, and I'm not often far wrong. That's never been based on what the judges liked or didn't like in the PEOPLE, but always based on the judges' personal preferences (as in size, head shape and similar) plus of course what dogs are the best.

You could try doing it like the cats?  Bare cages?  Or maybe one handler for the entire class so you don't know which dog is which?  Or maybe judges are not allowed to show so they aren't going to get anything back?  Or people that show, can't judge(that won't work as partners/friends could get involved then).  Ha, theres a few to be getting on with anyway.

I take it ALL the above points were meant as a joke? or do I need to explain why each one would be impossible? :)

I might have been lucky Jeff, but I can't remember ever seeing judging like you describe. I've seen a few questionable decisions, sure, but never anything like what you describe.  Could it to a certain extent be breed specific? I mean that as in some breeds judges may excuse something that would never be excused in another -rightly or wrongly.

Hi Marianne,
There is the possibility it is a breed specific thing but to the best of my ability having read some of the standards concerned I don't think so. I should also point out that this is mainly, although not exclusively, at Open Show level.
Jeff. 

Or maybe one handler for the entire class

wow, sounds radical--I see where you are coming from but I see the show as a team effort between me and my dog--he may be great (or not), but I need to be every bit as good to avoid showing him up rather than off, if you see what I mean. I don't know that I would bother going to shows if it was just a case of handing them over ringside to a professional handler--and surely that would push the price up even more?

Jeff, I know where you are coming from. None of us mind being beaten by a good dog who deserves to win. I'm still riled by results at a club show this year.

As Open shows are where judges learn to judge they may just not be very good at it????

Often it isn't bent judging just poor judging due to lack of ability/experience/knowledge etc.

I quite agree and am mindful of that but those I have seen are by no means new judges.
Jeff.

but are they interested/expereinced/involved in the given breed.  Many judges take on other breeds or else the society will not have them judge as they need judges to do more than just their own breeds of interest.

Lack of interest in a breed should not preclude competent judging. The majority of judges do their "homework" and judge with due process but, I believe, we have far too many lacking the basic skills - even though they are not new to judging.
Jeff. 

perhaps a wrong choice of words, when I said lack of interest, maybe should in some cases mean lack of care (was trying to be polite), this may include not being bothered to do the required homework.

>Lack of interest in a breed should not preclude competent judging.

But it does; I was told, after the judging, by a very sympathetic judge that my bitch was lovely and should have had a lovely future, but at her age her spots weren't going to go black ... er no, that's because she was a liver!!!!

OMG JG what did you say????

I pointed out that liver is a standard colour and asked him if he said the same thing about yellow labradors not turning black. He looked rather puzzled and walked away.

When I see that a judge is doing several toy breeds and dals tagged on as well then I don't enter.

At least they knew she was a Dally! 

With mine I have had them not even be sure of the breed! 

I think mine are pretty typical examples of their breed.

To be honest I rarely do Open shows these days.

I know judges have to learn, but not at my expense any more.  Once you reach the stage in dogs where you can assess your own breed yourself you don't need or want uneducated opinions on your dogs, you want to show to judges whose opinion you respect.

The whole training of judges needs to change and learning to judge should not be in the ring as a judge.

The Scandinavians have student judges where someone interested in a breed (sometimes highly qualified judges in other breeds) will be able to go over the exhibits after the judge has, take their own notes and make up their minds over grading and placings and then can discuss with the judge later, and this I assume they would do many times before feeling competent to run the rule over actual dogs themselves.

>At least they knew she was a Dally! 

To be fair, most 3 year olds recognise a dalmatian when they see one!

At least they knew she was a Dally!
To true Brainless, hence I think being told my dog did not have the typical spectacles markings and being beaten by a Sloughi the hound specialist judge insisted was a greyhound.

Hi Barbara,
Lack of care is actually probably a better heading for this thread. Unfortunately this seems to be coupled with missing/ignoring what I would call the basics.
JG's Dalmatian story may, or may not, be an extreme case but this type of thing goes on to a lesser or greater degree week in week out and these people keep judging!
Jeff. 

I pointed out that liver is a standard colour and asked him if he said the same thing about yellow labradors not turning black.

Brilliant! So many people would not have said anything.