I would appreciate it if anyone could recommend a book, which provides an explanation on colour genes in labradors.

Thanks

Caroline

The book that always used to be recommended for genetics was by Roy Robinson? Genetics for dog breeders something like that covered all aspects don't know if that is still around. He also did a cat one called surprisingly Genetics for cat breeders
Anne

Hi,
I don't know of any books as such but found a great chart on a web site called Blue Knight Labradors. Basically if you know the history of the Dam and Sire and what colours they possibly carry then it can tell you the likely outcome of the litter in terms of colour.I found that much easier to grasp actually seeing it in front of me than reading about it.It doesn't explain anything but it is handy to look at,
Best Wishes
Amy

Amy,

Would you post the web addy as I can't find Blue Knight Labradors on the seach engine.

Many thanks
kim

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html,,,,,,,,,,,, this is the sight that was mentioned,,,, looks good,,,,

You could try:
1. robinson's dog genetics; out of print I believe
2. Malcom B Willis, "Genetics of the Dog", 1989.
3. Ruvinsky, Sampson et al "The Genetics of the Dog". CABI publishing

The latter is quite a tome but has detailed coverage and is only recently published. Very good. Pricey though.

Not a book, but this site is very good indeed.

http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi,

Have not been around for a few days (bad bug ugh!) I have purchased the I breed system and because Labs have three main colours they have done a gene test section for me (I thinks thats what its called) I put in possible sire and Dam and it determines which colours will be produced in which % all very clever! I will find out how accurate next year when I Breed from Sasha. I have decided to use a black sire (sasha is chocolate) as there is a lot of chocolate in the last three generations in fact only one dog was black. Sasha's colour is fantastic but would not like to breed wishy washy chocolates so black sire it is and the gene tester recons that 46% black 48% chocolate and 6% chance of a yellow in the litter. What do you all think and sorry if I have I gone off the subject(more likely lost the plot)!!!!

regards
Kim

Hello Kim

The problem with these predictions is that they're based on a a large number of puppies in various litters with different parents. You would then expect these %s if all litters were of exactly the same chance of carrying the recessives. It's highly unlikely you will get these exact results from just one litter.

If the black parent carries brown (chocolate) then each puppy born has a 50:50 chance of being genetically black or brown. If both parents carry yellow then each puppy will have 25% chance of yellow and this will over-ride the black/brown expression. If the black parent doesn't carry brown or yellow, then you will get only black puppies. There is also a small chance of rare recessives in Labs ie black/tan and black/brindle.

Julie

Hi ya Julie

You have my admiration big time I understand what your saying and knew most of it but there is no way I could have put it like that!!
Its just fun to see what the compuer throws up. You do have to enter at least three generations of the bitch and stud for it to come up with this info.

The reason I have it I want to log all the pups I breed and build a database, the bitch I have will be my foundation bitch, so its uncharted waters as far as colours go. I have researched her immediate lines, mainly for breed standard and health, but have looked at colours.

I am very interested in what colours are lurking in the genes but can only wait and see.
Hence the choice of Black Stud I do not want to loose the quality of the chocolate.

By the way if this sounds like millions of pups running round, not intended as I plan one litter, and if (big if )all goes well and we get some nice pups worthy of the breed and I would like one myself to bring on, I may breed more in a couple of years so long term plans but as you and I well know plans are there but, always a spanner lurking to make things interesting!!

Sorry if this seems disjointed have not got my head together yet this morning.

Hi kim

Sounds like you're going about it the right way....good luck!

Just another point though. I know it's commonly thought that breeding chocolate x chocolate in Labs reduces the pigment but there isn't actually any genetic basis to this. The genes that control intensity of pigment aren't linked to black/brown or any of the colour pattern genes. If you choose two chocolates of good pigment they should be just as likely to reproduce this as black x choc.

In other breeds that have only the brown gene like Irish Water Spaniels and breeds where brown x brown breedings are common (English Springers) there is no more loss of pigment than breedings involving a black parent. They don't get paler with each generation.

Julie

Is brown a recessive gene in Labs?

Yes, brown is recessive to black. Yellow is on a separate locus and is recessive to black/brown.

Ok, deep breath, not always good at this :D . In Sibes recessive colours can have either liver or black pigment, however liver pigment is definately 'weaker' although if a strongly pigmented liver is put to another with preferably black behind it, you should still get good pigment. Is this the truer case with choc labs & pigment? Just wondering

Hi Sarah

Liver in Sibes and choc in Labs is the same gene. Liver can't carry black so it shouldn't make any difference if there is black behind or not. Liver is "weaker" because it is lighter than black but of course any colour is "weaker" than black :-) I am curious about this belief that brown x brown reduces pigment and maybe there is some foundation to it but I can't see how it could be possible genetically.

I've also heard that some breeders believe that brown has some associated risk of increased health problems of sorts. Anyone know anything of this?

Hi Julie

In Sibes continued breeding of White/Pie/red - all recessives, to the same three colours, will dramatically reduce pigment if brown. This will show as complete lack on eyelids, around lips, or large blotches only. I think where my black theory comes in is if you have a strong black to a strong brown you will likely get strong brown and can try and keep this, however there are a lot of badly pigmented sibes out there, believe me:-)

The Dutch Sibe Breeders had a theory on continued mating of Piebalds/whites that you would produce hearing problems, never found out how far they took their trials and what the end results were.

Hi Sarah

Ah yes, white marking is an entirely different thing. The white areas have no pigment at all and if this happens to cover the ear and eye regions then deformities can occur. Any dog of whatever breed has an increased risk of deafness if there is extensive white on the head.

Would be interested to know if any brown x brown breeding are done in Sibes and what the results are?

Julie

Hi Julie
Yes brown to brown is quite commonly done. All Sibe colours carry white in some form.

Personally, on pigment basis, I did

Liver male to black female = 1 b/w, black pigment, 1 r/w, liver pigment, 2 grey's, black pigment.

The liver pigment wasn't complete. I put her to a white male with liver pigment, who again came from a black x liver mating

I got 3 whites & 1 red & white all with strong liver pigment.

I am now putting her to a grey/white with black pigment who has a piebald mother with broken pigment so we shall see.

Hope this is what you wanted?

Hi,
I am certainly not an expert, but it is possible that some of the "whites" used in these breedings are really what is known as "light chinchilla". I have seen Sibes at shows in the US(both colors) that were very "light", appearing white with only colored tips to the hair.
The chinchilla gene WILL reduce color in degrees. I am not aware that it exists in solid colored breeds, however, like Labs or Flatcoats.
TiaLee

Yep, we get chinchilla's, in fact I don't think we truely get whites, they are dilutes.

I don't know much about Sibe colour, they are a bit complicated :-) but I have heard of the chinchilla. The whites I've seen in the UK though do look like recessive ee whites which do tend to have pale nose pigment. I haven't heard of chin in any other breed.

Hi Julie

Don't know if you've been to this site http://www.huskycolors.com/I think you may enjoy looking at some more complicated Sibes :P

Hi Julie,

Thanks for that, I was advised by the vet who did her eye testing that I should go for the black sire. I will this time and if I have another litter I will go for a chocolate. As she is due in season Jan/Feb and its taken me 9 months to decide on this boy.

Would I be right in thinking that if she had an all black litter that they would all carry the chocolate gene?

Kim

Hi Kim

Interesting that the vet should think this too. Perhaps you could ask him what he thinks of brown x brown breedings in English Springers and Irish Water Spaniels.

Yes, if one parent is choc, all pups will be chocolate or choc carriers.... including the yellows.

Julie

Hi Julie!

Long time no talk - how are you?

We've just done a liver x liver flatcoat mating - for work rather than show, although both animals good specimens, esp. with coat and eye pigmentation (exceptional for livers). We did have quite a lot of small white markings on the chests in the litter, although they will most likely moult out with time, but slightly concerned that the eye pigmentation, although acceptable, is not as dark as either parent.

Just talking to Terri Durrant, who has also done similar mating - too early with hers to see eye colour, but she says she also has quite a lot of white markings. (None on any of the parents)

Don't see why this should happen - maybe just a quirk, as I have had the occasional white spots on Black/black matings as well.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo

Good to hear from you.....everything fine here in West Wales, except that its raining again LOL.

Likewise, I don't see why browns from brown x brown matings should be any different to those with black parents. After all they have just the two alleles so can't be any more brown!

In my last litter (Finnish Lapphunds) I had some very pale eyes from a brown tanpoint to a black pigmented red sable who carries brown (obviously!). Eyes lighter than both parents but the only brown coated one has darker hair colour than the brown parent. I think its just the luck of the draw and the same with the white markings.

The white does tends to get less as they grow. The pigment cells haven't finished migrating at birth so continue moving into unpigmented areas for a few weeks or months after birth.

Julie

The white cells are somatic mutations then?? Maybe the same only not so marked as mosaic patterning in (very few) labradors?

Am I getting the wrong end of the stick (again!)

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hmm, methinks yes :-)

Somatic mutations are usually when yellow hairs mutate back to black. The recessive allele e seems to be very unstable and often reverts back to the original wild type E. You can see the effect of this most often in Westies. The odd black hair is also common in Golden Retrievers and probably other yellow dogs too. Sometimes whole patches occur which is what the mosaic is.

White hair occurs in areas where there are no melanocytes (pigment cells) at all. They're not mutations, just areas that the melanocyes haven't managed to reach.

Incidentally, the Westie colour and some other white breeds, isn't the type of white with no melanocytes. They have cells with pigment so light as to appear white which is why they don't suffer from colour related deafness.