http://www.thedogplace.org/VACCINES/Vaccine-Induced-Disease.asp

Lots of the latest vaccine information available here...including a study of an intervet vaccine that was tested in laboratory conditions...and PROVEN to be a killer...

Got any peer reviewed stuff amongst all that?  Might be easier if you link straight to it.

this link may be of interest to some.
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM
Protocols for vaccines by Dr Jean Dodds
her profile is here for anyone who would like to know more about herhttp://www.dogsadversereactions.com/vDrDodds.html
imo she has some sensible advice

Yes, but can you steer us to some peer reviewed stuff?

Probably not I am afraid my knowledge is not that deep. I am not that extreme and tend to steer a bit of a middle ground
I really put this up as a kind of more moderate view to that of fos

There are several references from peer reviewed journals at the bottom of Jean Dodds' protocol.

Unfortunately we cannot read them.
Maybe it is just me but whenever I see pieces in different type faces and colours I often get the impression that they don't really want me to read this, maybe just the headlines but they are not expecting people to really read and digest it :)

I can access some, but not many....  you need to befriend a trainee vet who will have access to the lot!  Jean Dodds' is an extremely well respected vet/scientist, I don't think she's saying vaccinating against a particular disease can cause that disease :-)  Her concern is with the increase of autoimmune disease in dogs and severe reactions to vaccines and therefore suggests vaccinating as little as possible while still conferring immunity (given that most manufacturers say they offer immunity for at least 3 years, and titering thereafter to see what's going on in the individual dog).  I personally think this is very sensible advice.  Not sure what her thoughts are on the frequency of the lepto vaccination though.

Re: the type faces, I always just see it as a sign of someone getting a bit too excited with whatever site builder they're using :-D

> Her concern is with the increase of autoimmune disease in dogs and severe reactions to vaccines and therefore suggests vaccinating as little as possible while still conferring immunity

Considering we now vaccinate less frequently than we did it doesn't seem the likely culprit of any increase to me.

Really? Is annually vaccinating for the whole lot less frequent to what's been done in the past? That's a genuine question, I honestly have no idea!

My vets haven't vaccinated for the whole lot annually for several years now.  I don't think many do.

It is not my intention to enter into any argument here (especially when the OP is on my IGNORE list ;) ) but I thought that I should share my experiences of vaccination over a period of 50+ years of dog-owning.

It was in the early 60s when I was first responsible for vaccinating our lab puppy - and he was vaccinated against "hardpad & distemper".  We were advised that he should be re-vaccinated in 3 years - which coincided with our second puppy, and so he was re-vaccinated, and Simba and Kip were redone 3 years later, and I seem to remember that as our dogs would swim in ponds as well as estuarial waters, it was suggested that we should also vaccinated against Weils (lepto).   We were advised with the Weils vaccination that this should be redone annually as it was not felt that the vaccine was strong enough to give more than one year's protection.   So this was given annually, but all others were given on a 3-year rotation.

We moved house mid-70s, and with the move, we changed vets who recommended annual vaccinations for all conditions.   As we'd been happy with the protection so far given to our dogs, we demurred - plus of course the financial aspect of the additional vaccinations - but continued with annual lepto shots.    We've continued this regime up to the present time - although of course, Thor received no further vaccinations after he was diagnosed with auto-immune conditions back in 2004/5 - just ensured that any other dogs that were being vaccinated were not allowed in close contact with him for a couple of weeks after their jabs, just to ensure his safety.

We've found this regime has worked with us - our dogs have lived long happy lives - they've received protection against diseases but have not been over-vaccinated.   Freya - now coming up for 6 - has just had her vaccinations redone, Odin will have his 1st year boosters, and that will be that - apart from annual lepto jabs - until his 3rd birthday.

Mine don't either, the boosters always cover Lepto and different vaccines each year, they don't overload on the same ones year after year. Lepto normally only gives protection for about 6 months anyhow..

My vets always check the vaccination card to see what was vaccinated against the previous year to work out what's needed this year. My old vet even had different charges according to what was done -it's definitely not everything every year.

> We were advised that he should be re-vaccinated in 3 years

I think that was quite unusual for the time.  Our family dogs from that era certainly had the lot every year and I believe that was the recommendation then. 

This is something I've recently discussed with my current vet (who follows Jean Dodds' protocol).  You are right that it shouldn't be done, but 3 other vet practices I've been to do the whole lot annually :-(   My two oldest dogs, until we changed to current vet, have had the whole lot every single year of their lives.  Incidentally both suffered from autoimmune conditions, but of course I'm not about to claim that categorically proves what Jean Dodds is saying  :-) Unfortunately I think there are many less-clued up vets out there who swallow whatever information the sales reps give them.  Yes of course it's up to us to choose a better vet, but the vast majority of pet owners are not going to be reading around the matter and will do what is advised by their vet (you can't argue with all those years of training.... can you!?).  I do wonder how many vets do things 'properly' as the subset of CD users and their vets is not representative of the country as a whole unfortunately :-(

It's only in about the past 8 years or so that my dogs haven't had the whole lot annually, and have gone down to DHP every 3 years and lepto annually. That's a lot of injections over the years, and never a problem.

That's not denying that problems do occasionally, and very sadly, occur, but they're much, much rarer than the extremist sites would have you believe.

> Incidentally both suffered from autoimmune conditions, but of course I'm not about to claim that categorically proves what Jean Dodds is saying

Bearing in mind, like most other people, mine and my families dogs were annually vaccinated for about three decades before the regime changed without any such difficulties I would not particularly feel it was the culprit. 

> I do wonder how many vets do things 'properly' as the subset of CD users and their vets is not representative of the country as a whole unfortunately

I think we are a pretty wide spread bunch :)

I was only teasing about the autoimmune thing... No one will ever know what caused it in my dogs!  Of course each dog's make-up is different, the fact that your family's dogs have been fine is only anecdotal evidence, just as my two being affected by auto immune disease is.  Without having an isolated breeding colony of Beagles or such like and doing the necessary controlled experiments, I don't feel any of us can apply our experiences to dogs as a whole.

CD posters are definitely a varied bunch, but I don't believe they really represent the vast majority of pet owners who would never dream of being on a dog forum at 11.15 pm on a Friday night :-D

CD posters are definitely a varied bunch, but I don't believe they really represent the vast majority of pet owners who would never dream of being on a dog forum at 11.15 pm on a Friday night :-D

Why, what else is there to do????? :)

Indeed.......

But do boarding kennels still insist on yearly vax?

>the fact that your family's dogs have been fine is only anecdotal evidence, just as my two being affected by auto immune disease is.

Not really - I'd assume your dogs' medical history is on the vet's records, just as mine is. It's available for use if needed for research.

>But do boarding kennels still insist on yearly vax?

Only of the vaccines that are required annually; leptospirosis and kennel cough.

>Not really - I'd assume your dogs' medical history is on the vet's records, just as mine is. It's available for use if needed for research.

But no one would ever be able to prove cause and effect from this information, which is all I was getting at.  None of us can say for certain that OTT vaccination predisposes autoimmune disease or categorically that it  doesn't, without scientific experimental design.  Trends could be identified from the information on vet records, and I would be very interested in reading a careful meta-analysis to this effect, but I don't think trends seen on champdogs are indicative of trends in the UK as a whole for example. 

I realise I may be coming across as a loony, or an anti-vaccination person... I'm honestly not! But just as some have made unsubstantiated claims against vaccination, I would rather keep an open mind rather than make unsubstantiated claims to the contrary of what Jean Dodds is saying (and her protocol is pretty much in line with what you've all said, but titering rather than boostering, so hardly extremist :-)) I am against giving the full lot annually, unnecessarily, which has been my only experience from vets until very very recently.

> Only of the vaccines that are required annually; leptospirosis and kennel cough

Really ? I must check with our kennels then as mine are due to have their boosters  in a couple of weeks (although it may only be the annual ones anyway - I'll have to check)

> Only of the vaccines that are required annually; leptospirosis and kennel cough.

That is interesting JG as these are the only 2 I give my boy. Lepto on its own though is much more expensive than as part of the booster scheme, I wonder why as its only 1 vaccine?

> the fact that your family's dogs have been fine is only anecdotal evidence

Well, yes but it's not just mine is it and the manufacturers do have to run trials to get a drug licensed.

> CD posters are definitely a varied bunch, but I don't believe they really represent the vast majority of pet owners who would never dream of being on a dog forum at 11.15 pm on a Friday night :-D

:)  What I meant was they would do as a pretty good sample of what vaccination regime vets are offering up and down the country and in previous I threads it appears to be a 3 year programme for most of us.

>> Only of the vaccines that are required annually; leptospirosis and kennel cough
>Really ? I must check with our kennels then as mine are due to have their boosters  in a couple of weeks

What I should have made clear is that coucil-licenced kennels are generally required to require that dogs have "up to date vaccinations". That nowadays means annual vaccination for leptospirosis and kennel cough, with the other core vaccines (DHP) being boosted every 3 years as per manufacturers' recommendations.

> but titering rather than boostering, so hardly extremist :-)

It does seem to ignore the risks of taking blood samples for titering though.
Unlike humans, it is not generally seen as viable to minimise risk by shaving a dogs fur and antiscepting the skin so the risk of introducing bacteria must be rather steeper......and then you may end up repeating that process if your dog is found to require vaccination.  
In balance, my personal belief is just to get on with it as the least risk against the greatest benefit.

> What I should have made clear is that coucil-licenced kennels are generally required to require that dogs have "up to date vaccinations

OK - I understand :) Thanks :)

Hmmm I hadn't thought of the risk of taking the blood sample... although my vets do shave and antiseptic before taking one, so I don't know how it's typically done.  I'm sure you would still agree it's better than burying your head in the ground and doing nothing at all :-)  I wouldn't have a problem in doing the booster protocol outlined by most of you, I'm just yet to find a vet that offers it!

> although my vets do shave and antiseptic before taking one, so I don't know how it's typically done.

I suppose any of us could request they do :) but, in balance, as I believe the risks are so low I think I will just continue on the current recommended regime.  I hope you can find a local vet that might offer it as I think you would be a lot more comfortable wouldn't you.

>I think you would be a lot more comfortable wouldn't you.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.  I'm happy with the way my vets (and Jean Dodds) do things, it works for me and I know my dogs are protected from their titre results.  I won't be looking elsewhere.  All I'm saying is that I am not against the way most of you have described as I think it follows the same principles, just executed in a slightly different way. 

Fair enough, I misunderstood when you said you had been asking around local vets.

>I'm happy with the way my vets (and Jean Dodds) do things, it works for me and I know my dogs are protected from their titre results.

Then that's fine, and I don't think anyone could possibly disagree with that; that's not extremism at all! :-) I just don't think there's any evidence shown (and certainly Jean Dodds doesn't say there is) that supports FoS's original claim that "most cases of leptospirosis are caused by vaccination".

It's acknowledged in the veterinary world that in certain individuals vaccination can cause problems - but these individuals are hugely in the minority.

> Then that's fine, and I don't think anyone could possibly disagree with that; that's not extremism at all! :-) I just don't think there's any evidence shown (and certainly Jean Dodds doesn't say there is) that supports FoS's original claim that "most cases of leptospirosis are caused by vaccination".

Totally agree. I started posting in response to an earlier post with a link to JD's protocol because I didn't want that advice to be lumped together with the spurious claims of the OP.  I find JD's theories very interesting and often sensible, but quite different to the ones presented by the OP!

One of my dogs had a reaction to a vaccination - it was never acknowledged as such by my then vet - and was very poorly for a couple of weeks after the injection and spent a week in the vets' on a drip ( an autoimmune diagnosis). My vet at the time insisted it wasn't a vaccine reaction but I personally felt it was and so did some research into the vaccine that had been given. On the manufacturer's website it clearly stated that the full booster need only be given every three years but my dog had been given it yearly as directed by the veterinary practice. My vet disputed the recommendations for vaccinating at three yearly intervals until I showed him the information I had printed out from the manufacturer's website.

I have since changed veterinary practices and the new one does follow the three yearly recommendation. I was in two minds as to whether or not I should vaccinate that dog at all ever again but am old enough to have seen the terrible effects of hardpad and distemper and so decided to vaccinate against this. My new vet suggested having the lepto vaccination done six months after the other boosters in order to not overload my dog's system and this seems to work really well.

To vaccinate or not will always be a thorny question and like most other things in life one's decisions will be based on personal experience - those who have had a bad experience of vaccinations will generally be against it and those who haven't will be in favour of them. So far my research has made me "for" vaccinations but done in a manner that suits my dog. If he were to have a similar reaction in the future then I am sure I would decide to not vaccinate him in the future but would probably still vaccinate our other dog :-)

I do agility with the dog who had the reaction so he regularly mixes with other dogs from many other areas of the country and I have decided that the odds of picking something up from another dog is probably higher than the chance of having another reaction to the vaccine - especially as my new vet does his best to ensure they are given as far apart as possible. Maybe I have made the wrong decision but if so I will have made that decision for the best reasons and I can live with that :-)

Thank you cvl for explaing what I couldnt. I had  recently had a long chat with my vet whom i have been with for over 20 years. They have always vaccinated annually but had advised me that if a client particulaly wants to follow a different protocol they are happy to discuss  and if reasonable to go with that. Apparently one reason for annual vaccines is to make sure most dogs do get vaccinated as most of their clients cannot cope with all the different times to get each done if that makes sense. Not sure I am entirely happy with that but I guess if you are in favour of vaccines and see reactoions as unlikely and annual regime would be fine
I didnt see fos original posts so am really not sure what her argument was

And thats all any of us can ever do....make the best decisions we can...based on our own experiences (mine have been horrifying)...and with the most up to date information available at the time...

But when research into immunity...is showing that puppy shots are good for at least 7 years...if not for the life of the animal...then it suggests to Me that the Vets who continue to send out Reminder Letters annually (even knowing that an animal is unwell and shouldn' be vaccinated..!) Are either hopelessly out of touch...victims of hard-selling sales reps....or couldn't care less...

I actually quite resent the implication that websites...and individuals...who hold an opposing view to the mainstream...should be considered as Extremists... If individuals want to conclude that I personally am an Extremist then that is their perogative....but please don't use derogatory terms against organisations and people who are often self-funded... And have spent many years...researching...exposing...and uncovering....

My own vet...when asked about latest research...admitted that maybe cats shouldn't be vaccinated annually...but that dogs should...(Just add up 14 Border Collies x annual jabs...it isn't about the money for Me though....I go out of My way like many Dog Lovers... to give them the best of Everything....its about My Dogs long term health...)  

There is also evidence to suggest that vaccinations are capable of altering DNA....now to Me....if there is even THE SLIGHTEST hint that this could be the case....then I'm sorry...but I will continue...unrepentent...to find out The Truth About Vaccines...

Apparently one reason for annual vaccines is to make sure most dogs do get vaccinated as most of their clients cannot cope with all the different times to get each done if that makes sense.
But that shouldn't be up to the pet owner to work out, it's the vet's job! They send out the reminders and give what is necessary, all the owner should need to do is make the appointment and turn up.

>But that shouldn't be up to the pet owner to work out, it's the vet's job! They send out the reminders and give what is necessary, all the owner should need to do is make the appointment and turn up.

Exactly. I do that every day of the week.

> that the Vets who continue to send out Reminder Letters annually (even knowing that an animal is unwell and shouldn' be vaccinated..!) Are either hopelessly out of touch...

The recommended regime includes some vaccination every year so they are not out of touch. 
It's a pity that they cannot exclude animals that have been recorded as unsuitable for vaccination but I suspect that it just beyond the sophistication of their systems and the owner should know which animals it applies to or not so I don't see any harm done.

I must say as much as I like my vets I felt he was fishing about for answere to some of my akward questions and that wasnt a good reason

And what is your Vets protocol if people fail to turn up...fail to turn up...fail to turn up...and then happen to go in for something else...???

Do they

A)Look at the history and make suggestions based on prior vaccination history...???

Or

B)say that the dog must have the entire series again...???

And just out of interest...do you continue to send Reminders to dogs and cats on your books...who are on long-term medication...or is there a filtering method of ensuring that doesn't happen...???

> ...do you continue to send Reminders to dogs and cats on your books...who are on long-term medication...

I never stopped vaccinating mine on long term medication.  I think it would depend on the medication as to whether it was contra indicated.

>I never stopped vaccinating mine on long term medication.

Same here. 

>I think it would depend on the medication as to whether it was contra indicated.

Correct.

But if a dog is on long medication...or indeed any medication.... then it would suggest that the animal is unwell....

And ALL vaccine inserts state quite clearly that "Only healthy animals should be vaccinated"

> Only healthy animals should be vaccinated"
>

You could say my dog was healthy on the medication :) 
As with everything else medical you need to balance the risks and benefits. 
Fair enough waiting for an acute illness to pass but when it is something chronic you have to weight it up.  She would have been a lot more unhealthy if she devoloped something we might have vaccinated her against. 

Depends on what the medication is for and how effective it is.  Four of my dogs are on long-term meds - two on painkillers only for arthritis; one on soloxine for his thyroid; and one on soloxine, propalin for spay incontinence, painkiller for arthritis and vetmedin for her heart (she'll be on ACE inhibitors soon too).  The only dog I wouldn't consider healthy enough is the oldest because she has chronic infections that we're still battling - the other three are healthy.  I will continue to consider Soli healthy until she goes into full blown heart failure.

The oldest, though, I wouldn't consider healthy enough to vaccinate - she's only medicated constantly for her arthritis, but she has chronic infection problems on her chin and in her right ear and I suspect that challenging her immune system would be the worst thing to do.  But she's no need for a booster - she's had them in the past and won't be kennelled.