Hi all again!

another newbie question before I press the Dogbiz button and enter my first champ show with Lou.

Loius will be just under 9ms on the day of Darlington.  Am I better to keep him in the MPD class or choose the PD class - what factors do I take into consideration when deciding the right class for him?

Sorry if this is a dopey question!

From my limited (and I mean limited :-D) experience, it's best to enter the 'lowest' class you are eligible to enter.  My dog is just out of puppy now and he looks extremely immature compared to the other Juniors, and I expect it would be the same between MPD and PD. 

At that age I would enter both :)

Now this is where you need an experienced eye, if your dog is well mature for age then it may be best to enter the Puppy class but if still a baby then the MP would be best. There is no reason why you can't enter both as he is nearly out of MP except the extra cost perhaps.

Bye the way, no question is daft if you don't know the answer. You will no doubt get people who disagree with one another anyway so perhaps it is true that none of us really know the answer.

Hi if me I would enter both :)  In fact could have kicked myself for not doing this at Windsor as we got 2nd in MP but as all the entries in Puppy were repeats we would have got 1st ! but oh well.

Bentley too was just under 9m!

ETA - you will be in puppy soon anyway :) Bentley got 1st in his 1st champ show puppy class at NGA this weekend :)

I think it's going to all depend on how big the classes are for your breed normally and how tired your puppy is likely to get. CH shows can be very tiring, especially for a young puppy.
I know for my girl her first few CH shows she'll just be in MPB and as she gets used to it and gets older then I may look at 2 classes, however i'd only do one breed class and look at a stakes class.

I put my lad in Minor Puppy and Puppy at our Breed show this year - it was our breeds first ever show with CC's and I was keen to qualify.  He was 8 months and a mature boy and I knew we'd have small classes so he wouldn't get overtired or bored.  M Puppy Dog class was 3 entries and Puppy Dog was only 5 entries.

To answer the question on your other thread too:  In fact he won both classes which was great for the JW points BUT even if he'd been beaten in the Puppy class then it wouldn't have mattered about not getting into the puppy challenge as that puppy would have beaten him there anyway.  Does that make sense? 

Good luck at the show :)

> for my girl her first few CH shows she'll just be in MPB

and for a 6m old puppy that's what I would do - but a nearly 9m old who will be up in puppy soon anyway may as well give it a go and the classes are straight after each other and less to do with a seen dog :)

>less to do with a seen dog

True, forgot about that bit, the seen dog.. lol..

Hi if me I would enter both :-)  In fact could have kicked myself for not doing this at Windsor as we got 2nd in MP but as all the entries in Puppy were repeats we would have got 1st ! but oh well.

Rachel, in this case if you had got a 1st in Puppy, could you have still been in the final puppy line up in that you were a beaten dog? - I really am confused aren't I!!!  -

I get terribly nervous, so I'm trying to cover all eventualities so I'm not frantically not knowing what to do and making myself worse! Louis is fortunately a very rock steady character.

I think I'll enter MPD & PD as seems to be recommended as I haven't compared him against any other MPD pups, so can't really tell if he's mature or not - I think he probably is though - in which case is he more or less likely to do well in MPD?

If he is beaten in MPD can he still get a 1st in Puppy? I don't quite understand why there are two puppy classes - what is the judge looking for?

Confused? Yep! :)

I don't quite understand why there are two puppy classes - what is the judge looking for?

It is age related, ie Minor Puppy is for dogs 6-9months old
Puppy dog is for puppies 6-12 months old. You are lucky to have both classes as in my breed we rarely if ever have Minor puppy classes and 6 month old puppies have to compete with much more mature puppies who are almost 1 year old..
Hth.....!!

>If he is beaten in MPD can he still get a 1st in Puppy?

Yes - if the puppy that beat him in the Minor Puppy class isn't entered in the Puppy class, and none of the 'new' entrants (puppies over 9 months) beat him.

>I don't quite understand why there are two puppy classes

Puppies of less than 9 months are much more immature than puppies of under 12 months, so it's a way comparing like against like.

> Confused? Yep!

Will your breeder be at the show too?  It really helps to have someone ringside who can help talk you through it - a running commentary if you like! :)

   >If he is beaten in MPD can he still get a 1st in Puppy?

Yes - if the puppy that beat him in the Minor Puppy class isn't entered in the Puppy class, and none of the 'new' entrants (puppies over 9 months) beat him.

Would he then count as a beaten dog and NOT be in the final puppy challenge?

Puppies of less than 9 months are much more immature than puppies of under 12 months, so it's a way comparing like against like.

It must be difficult to judge puppies in that they are immature and it is another variable to consider - especially as some mature at different rates than others -  Louis' sister is still very roly poly babyish, so I haven't considered showing her - am I wrong? should I be showing purely according to age and letting the judge make allowances for her puppy fat, or wait until she firms up and looks more like Louis?

Regardless I'm going to concentrate on Lou this time (and save up to show Evie!!! £25.00 + £9.00 carpark & programme - heck!)

Thank you everyone for your help - now to press the dogbiz button once and for all!

Hi Dogs a Babe,

this is what happened when I very briefly showed two dogs 12 yrs ago (one too big, the other a natural NON show-er!)

Unfortunately, I've bred this litter myself and am going it alone, so no mentor - it does feel a lot more scary than last time! I think I'll have to try get myself adopted!!! :)

> Rachel, in this case if you had got a 1st in Puppy, could you have still been in the final puppy line up in that you were a beaten dog?

Sorry didn't explain all the entries were repeats except for the dog that beat us in Minor Puppy!  and no I couldn't challenge for best puppy dog or be in the challenge - but would have had 3 junior warrant points :)  which based on previous class numbers I have received none ! :)  but I am not too worried about a puppy being in the challenge and whilst Best puppy is nice again not too worried about that at ch shows :)

And yes if he is beaten in MPD and the dog that beat him isn't in the Puppy class he could still get a 1st in Puppy :)  Don't worry it really is a mind field but eventually it all makes sense :)

Basically once you are a seen dog from a previous class the steward to put all the seen dogs in some sort of order (if more than one repeat) i.e. in order of placings - the judge will then see all the unseen dogs first and probably only get the seen dogs to move (rather than go over them again) and he/she may like your younger dog more than the older puppies - you just never know :)

Go and enjoy your day :)

There are two puppy classes - minor puppy is 6-9m and puppy is 6-12m (so includes older puppies) when you have a slow maturing breed sometimes being in the younger class is best - but alot of people enter both for experience and you never know your luck :)

ETA: Ooops see your questions have been already answered - sorry for being so late replying!

> Yes - if the puppy that beat him in the Minor Puppy class isn't entered in the Puppy class, and none of the 'new' entrants (puppies over 9 months) beat him.
>

JG - I should have explained that :) sorry guys! the Puppy class was a repeat of all the minor puppies EXCEPT the MP that beat him and no new entries!  never mind!

> Would he then count as a beaten dog and NOT be in the final puppy challenge?
>

yes he was a beaten puppy - only unbeaten puppies can challenge for the puppy - also he wouldn't be in the overall challenge :)

Yes judges will make allowances to some extent for immaturity and puppy fat, and also allow for puppy antics :)  It isn't always the case that maturity will win - a 10m pup may look more unbalanced than a 6-7m old pup - they all can grow at different stages :)  Gordons particularly go through a very leggy stage - bum high all sorts!  So on one day may look fab the next week look very gangley :)

Just try and enjoy yourself and your pup enjoy the ring too :)

    > Rachel, in this case if you had got a 1st in Puppy, could you have still been in the final puppy line up in that you were a beaten dog?

Sorry didn't explain all the entries were repeats except for the dog that beat us in Minor Puppy!  and no I couldn't challenge for best puppy dog or be in the challenge - but would have had 3 junior warrant points :-)  which based on previous class numbers I have received none ! :-)  but I am not too worried about a puppy being in the challenge and whilst Best puppy is nice again not too worried about that at ch shows :-)

And yes if he is beaten in MPD and the dog that beat him isn't in the Puppy class he could still get a 1st in Puppy :-)  Don't worry it really is a mind field but eventually it all makes sense :-)

Basically once you are a seen dog from a previous class the steward to put all the seen dogs in some sort of order (if more than one repeat) i.e. in order of placings - the judge will then see all the unseen dogs first and probably only get the seen dogs to move (rather than go over them again) and he/she may like your younger dog more than the older puppies - you just never know :-)

Go and enjoy your day :-)

There are two puppy classes - minor puppy is 6-9m and puppy is 6-12m (so includes older puppies) when you have a slow maturing breed sometimes being in the younger class is best - but alot of people enter both for experience and you never know your luck :-)

Thanks Rachel! (I'm a Rachel too btw! :) )  I'm definitely going to enter two classes and chalk up the outcome as an experiment.  I hadn't even considered the JW part of things - another consideration I hadn't thought about - perhaps this is what I should aim for, I do find Open shows a lot less intimidating.

Thank you for your optimism! :)

> I think I'll have to try get myself adopted!

Hi SaffronS, if you go to ringcraft you'll probably see some members at shows too and they are usually willing to help.  I also found that I often bumped into the same few people (different breeds) at open shows and they were always more than willing to point me in the right direction - literally!!

Sometimes it's the instant decisions that send you into a spin - do I go back in, when do they challenge for Best Puppy, what can I withdraw from, shall I hover ringside or leave, do I stay for a crit or not, when to stack/stand and when to allow your pup to flump on the floor...  ??!

What breed do you have?  Perhaps there's someone on here who can meet up at your first show?  Worth asking :)

Hi Rachel (good to have a name :))

Oh I love open shows - but I am lucky in having a venue within a reasonable distance :)

Yes what breed do you have :)

Sadly Stafford showground is rather far for me so not a venue I go to!

I'm sure you will do FAB :)

and the JW - not optimistic myself as he currently only has 1 point from an open win where finally we had 3 in the class- his first champ show he won - only 2 in the class, and then this weekend again only 2 in the class!  So whilst would be nice to chalk some more points up - don't think we will get it!  but nice to at least try :)

We missed quite a few champs too due to a leg injury which thankfully he recovered from.

Rachel x

> and the JW - not optimistic myself as he currently only has 1 point from an open win where finally we had 3 in the class- his first champ show he won - only 2 in the class, and then this weekend again only 2 in the class! So whilst would be nice to chalk some more points up - don't think we will get it! but nice to at least try

Me too!  Just not enough numbers in our puppy classes at Champ Shows and not enough entries in any of our breed classes at open shows.  We even got Best Dog at a Champ Show (beating the other male class winners) but as there were only 2 in our class we got no points.  We could have got them for Best Puppy in Breed if the bitch puppy had enough in her class but she was 1 of 2 as well.  Never mind, I shall continue to try until our deadline of February 2012... :)