I have recently purchased a puppy from a breeder advertised on this site and have  encountered a bad experience. After careful consideration I put my name down with this particular breeder. I had also agreed the pick of the litter as I was looking for a red male. After the gestation period I recieved an email, it said there was bad news only 1 red male had survived as two were still born.
As I was looking for a red male the dog was viewed and purchased.After 4 weeks of ownership I happened to be looking on this site only to see the same breeder advertising a red male pup from the same litter. I contacted the breeder today and confronted her. Initially she told me another lie, but when I told about my evidence she then admitted her wrong doings! I am now in a dilemma, I am happy with the pup and my family are attached to him, but the dishonest breeder has now cast doubt on whether the pup is actually from the stated parents and after all that is what I was lead to believe and purchased. I have contacted the KC Kennel Club and they suggested requesting dna testing that they would pursue if I have difficulty getting the breeder and stud owner to agree.
This has turned what should have been an enjoyable experience into a very stressful time. Any further help or advise with this would be very much appreciated.

Very strange it is a peculiar thing to do, but what was the breeders explanation for keeping the second red male a 'secret'? I know you seem to think that there is some pup switching going on, you might be right, who knows?

Just speculation here, I'm more inclined to think that two reds were perhaps whelped and she wanted first choice either for herself or someone else, but did not want or was not able to tell you first choice was now going somewhere else, that way you got the 2nd choice pup, something has now happened, the breeder no longer wants the red or the other person, so re-advertisement? Which you obviously saw.

Seems to make more sense. Sometimes breeders don't straight talk and perhaps she thought you would look elsewhere if first choice was no longer yours, who knows, it's underhand if this is the case, but no real wrong doing apart from not getting first choice.

If the DNA is in question you need to find out and if it is shown not to be the correct pup from advertised dam and sire make sure you let CD administration know about this too.

I am inclined to think there were two reds though, you just weren't told. :-)

I have since found out that there were three reds!! Totally underhand and untrustworthy breeder in my opinion. If the dna proves conclusive I will sue the breeder for obtaining money by deception.

I would say if you are not happy with the breeder then walk away . You should be able to have a good relationship with breeder throughout your dogs life and if you are threatening to sue them now for something that may not happen then it doesn't bode well !!

Look again and find a breeder you can trust and meet and build a relationship that you feel comfortable with .

Sorry didn't read your post properly too early and not had my cup of tea ! :-)

Difficult one and agree it does sound like Carringtons explanation.

When you went to see the pups how many times did you go and did you see the whole litter when you went ?

I had a similar experience, had my name down for a female pup for about 12 months from a breeder who was a member of several breed clubs, when the litter arrived that I really wanted a pup from I was told there was only one female,I knew the dam was retiring and the breeder would be keeping back a female, so decided to take a male instead, when I got the breed supplement some months later I discovered there was 2 females, I let her know I found out and left it at that.

When I went to pick Rhuari up she offered me a female pup from an older litter as well, I told I couldn't afford another pup, she told me I could pay in instalments but I said No, if she didn't want me to have a female pup then why offer me that one.

Never did find out where his sister went, judging by her registered name not to a breeder as the only pup with a fancy name was the one she kept, the rest got affix plus call name.

Rhuari was the first to be tested for PRA cord1 and his sister the breeder kept was tested at 5yrs old both clear,no other litter mates have been tested.

I think like me you have to let the breeder know you found out and let it drop as nothing is going to change things and give you a choice of pups.

I bought a female pup a few years ago and saw the litter several times and there were only 2 females in it but when I read the BRS later the breeder had registered 3.Still puzzled why that would be. She never took any interest in the pup after we took her home and didn't answer mails so never got the chance to ask her.

My breeder wasn't online at the time and for 18 months I posted updates and photos to her  but never got any response so I gave up.

Some breeders are strange and some things you don't find out till it is too late.

> Some breeders are strange and some things you don't find out till it is too late.

So very true, and then it's things you'd rather not know. My OH still thinks that we don't have the puppy he choose, the markings were very similar and yes we did take photos.

Rhuari had changed alot but was the only cream brindle male as the others were shaded creams so knew I had the right pup.

Very sad that there are breeders like this. :-(

> 2 females in it but when I read the BRS later the breeder had registered 3.Still puzzled why that would be.

The litter may have been registered when very young and the bitch died before you visited maybe?

I usually register pups in the first week, and have had a puppy PTS at nearly two weeks so is possible, you can cancel the registration, but they don't refund you the reg fee so I suspect some breeders wouldn't bother to tell the KC for the sake of records.

Of course less scrupulous puppy producers will register extra puppies and then use the papers for unregistered stock, their own or bought in, or to enable them  to overbreed a bitch using two identites. 

As these kind of people are unliklly to health test permamanent verifiable ID requiremenets won't affect them

To the Orignal Poster did you not see the whole litter when you visited them?

> If the dna proves conclusive I will sue the breeder for obtaining money by deception.

If the breeder knows this is your intention won't she just deny your request for testing?

> If the breeder knows this is your intention won't she just deny your request for testing?

I have had a similar problem recently and I took the breeders absolute refusal to allow a DNA test as proof of guilt. Even if she wasn't happy about me questioning the parents if she was sure they were correct then she had nothing to lose by letting me do a DNA test.Everyone I spoke to said the same.

I was told there were only 4 pups, 1 red, and 3 black/white which is what I saw when I visited. The breeder obviously removed the other two.I have since spoke to the owner of the stud dog and the dam they have no problem with a dna test. On that basis I am pritty sure the breeder just wanted to keep the best for herself and resulted in her dishonest behaviour. We'll see what happens next.

> I was told there were only 4 pups, 1 red, and 3 black/white which is what I saw when I visited.

Are you quite sure she did not say these were what were available?

>On that basis I am pritty sure the breeder just wanted to keep the best for herself and resulted in her dishonest behaviour.

This is quite normal, to be expected so not sure why she would be dishonest about it.

I do wonder if you were offered the pick of the 4 available puppies (most often the breeder is keeping one themselves and may have one booked by either the stud owner, or the bitch breeder (bitch may have been on terms).

What is the breeders explanation?

Are you planning on breeding from this pup when it matures? You may find it harder to get help from the KC if he wasn't bought on a breeding contract as DNA won't matter in a pet.

> After the gestation period I recieved an email, it said there was bad news only 1 red male had survived as two were still born.

There is no excuse for this lie - even if she didn't want to sell you her pick of litter. 

No that wasn't the case. The breeder told me two dogs were still born!!They were then hidden from view on my visits. This left only one red dog(which I was looking for) the others were black which I wasn't interested in. The two still borns have now come to life 10 weeks later! I simply would rather have been told that I hadn't got pick of the litter because she wanted to keep two for herself. I would have then made my decision on that but I wasn't given that option.

Exactly my opinion. I travelled a five hour journey twice to be told a pack of lies. This kind of carry on is what gives breeders a bad name.

I really cannot understand why a breeder would do this. 

After all as has happened it is easy enough to find out how many pups are registered in a litter, it's a matter or public record, and in fact new owners are encouraged in the transfer process to buy the breed records supplement that contains the litter details.

>Initially she told me another lie, but when I told about my evidence she then admitted her wrong doings!

Stormwarrior - did she say why she lied in the first place?  As Brainless says it's a very odd thing to do (even though most pet owners would never find out, it's a risk that someone might do some research; like you did...)

It does seem strange.You don't know the size of the original litter I guess.It still maybe possible that she meant 'available'pups and had a booking cancellation.You could check the brs when published to check the litter size.I guess this is a breed with a high numerically sized litter.I guess you are still happy with the puppy,it shows no breed faults-, if you want to show,and you have bonded with it.
It just leaves a bad taste when deceived by a breeder in this way.

Suppose it is possible that the two pups removed from sight had a glaring fault and although registered are destined to go to a pet only home and not a pet/show home. Could be the only thing the breeder is guilty of is embarrassment.

I feel this is very underhand. If she was wanting to keep pups for herself then she should have said so, but to remove two from the litter when the OP visited is underhand.

>but to remove two from the litter when the OP visited is underhand.

Think it is normal practice to only show a puppy purchaser those pups that are available - the question here is if the OP was promised pick of litter but was not given it. There should be some sort of explanation if indeed a contract was entered into and the OP is within there rights to ask for compensation if the contract was broken.

But if the OP has a sound healthy pup I think I would forget the matter and enjoy the pup after all many a "pick of litter" has turned out to be nothing special and the pup sold as a pet has been shown to win it's title.

But if the OP has a sound healthy pup I think I would forget the matter and enjoy the pup after all many a "pick of litter" has turned out to be nothing special and the pup sold as a pet has been shown to win it's title.

Very true Nova. :-) And I agree with you completely,

The pup taken, must have been a nice dog or the OP would have walked away surely? I just wouldn't think of the other two pups now and be pleased with the one I had.

But, I guess that is not the problem, to our OP I can fully understand why she is well and truly peeved, the breeder said the other two reds were dead, tbh I think that would pee any of us off being told such a terrible lie, it would destroy any relationship with any breeder immediately, for me it is the whole package of what the owner has lost, trust in the breeder, worry over the lie whether it means dodgy dealings have gone on, it would prick away at anyone why such lies were told and also being made a fool of, none of us would like it to happen to us. I would be mighty peeved at that too. Is it a one off lie and the breeder just took the cowards way out (I happen to think so) or is it a regular lie and has been used on other puppy owners too? You couldn't help but be filled with so many questions.

But once the anger dies down I guess there is a choice............If the DNA is fine, there may well be a case to answer for the deceit as the breeder obviously e-mailed to say the other pups were dead indicating she did have pick of litter, but tbh if it were me, and if I were happy with the pup I'd got I probably wouldn't press it. If I wasn't happy with the pup that would be a different matter, but if you break it down what would a small claims court be compensating for after weeks probably months of going through the process?

I'm sure the OP would not wish to trade her pup for one of the others, if she does again that is a different case and she may well be granted that via a court, but if not, there is no monetary loss, just emotional I really don't know what a judge would weigh that up to be worth, the case could well be thrown out.

As upset as any of us would be at being told such a terrible lie, my choice if the pup purchased is one that I was pleased with would be to not put myself through any more, I may well let the KC and breed club know about the underhand way the breeder operates,  but under the circumstances that would be it, not worth the effort IMO, unless I wished to change the pup?

Is there an update Stormwarrior?

And in my turn I agree with you, Carrington, if there was a contract, written or verbal, then the OP has a case for recompense but that said it would be best to get on with enjoying the pup and let the KC sort out any misdemeanour's unless the OP has a stomach for civil action.