Ok knowledgable people....I am purely doing this to help out someone I know.  I know the ins and outs of my own breed but not CKCS unfortunately so don't really know anyone in the 'know' as such.

I don't want to mention breeders on here but if anyone is very into the breed please can you pm me so I can ask a few questions and find out some more info.

Basics of it - pups sold as Kennel Club Registered, pups sold at KC Registered prices, young couple bought pup thinking they could show etc and have been basically taken for a song and dance as the breeder has not KC registered the pups.

I have looked into the basics and wouldn't have touched them with a barge pole....dam only eye tested, sire no health tests.  Parents are KC Registered so I just want to help out and find the real reason why this litter are not registered.  Either because he falsely advertised and had no intention of registering them or because he doesn't really know what he is doing.

Another reason for finding the info out is because this breeder was recommended by someone from a breed club and they want us to get back in touch so they can make sure he is not recommended again and people are warned etc.

So any help via pm will be appreciated, thank you :)

> young couple bought pup thinking they could show etc :-(

Its the etc that worries.

Toolz...by etc I just meant showing and at the time they thought he needed to be KC registered for things like agility which I have obviously explained that they can put him on the working register.  They bought a male pup and have absolutely no intention of ever using him, they are a great couple and are currently in my training classes but this is their first dog and they thought they did everything right to get a KC registered puppy. 

If it was a recommendation from a breed club they should be informed...code of ethics requires that pups should registered among other things.

Breed club have been informed but they want the couple to do more chasing as the man keeps saying he will register pups...unlikely 1 year down the line.

If anyone does breed/show CKCS I would be grateful for help via pm.

Thanks :)

I find it hard to believe any breed club CKCS or otherwise would recommend a breeder who did not know what they were doing.

You say, you know the ins and outs of your breed but not CKCS? surely this isnt a breed question but a KC question.....

I have looked into the basics and wouldn't have touched them with a barge pole....dam only eye tested, sire no health tests.

Just curious -where did you get that info? In case you didn't know, heart testing and MRI scanning for SM is not published in the KC health test checker for Cavaliers, only eyes are. So even if they had been done you wouldn't be able to check up on it.

Thats all the info I have from the people who bought the pup so I checked on the KC site and the dam has been eye tested, I didn't realise they didn't publish any of the other results on there but it still shows the sire hasn't even had the eye test.

The KC have answered all they can - pups aren't registered.  I was hoping to find someone who may know the breeder or the dogs involved and that could answer why they aren't registered as both parents are.

I would guess at one or both of the parents being endorsed or mother being too young/old.

Thats all the info I have from the people who bought the pup so I checked on the KC site and the dam has been eye tested, I didn't realise they didn't publish any of the other results on there but it still shows the sire hasn't even had the eye test.

Please be aware that the KC are not always quick at posting up eye results, I had my boy eye tested last October at a breed health day and that info is still not on the KC website.

I hope this helps.

I would say most likely reason for non KC reg pups is that one or both of the parents have endorsed pedigrees. Either that or the dam has had more than the number of litters that the KC allow :-(

As for price - non KC reg cav pups are commonly being sold at the same price as KC reg pups. It would seem that a significant proportion of the buying general public in my breed don't particularly care much for KC registration anymore. Crazy.

I don't suppose the puppy was from the Kent area at all? I had some trouble last year with a man trying to register a litter with my dog is the sire, which was not the case?
Other than that I agree, the dam may have already had a litter registered that year or had more than the number of litters allowed.

Thanks for the replies everyone.  The couple are now taking further action against this person - as advised by the Kennel Club.  After doing a bit of research I have found out the sire is a very nice dog who now resides in another country, the dam more pet bred but thats not the issue.  Both sire and dam are registered with the KC and neither have any endorsements on their pedigree.  The person who bred them kept the bitches and sold the dogs - as they had done with previous litters so they can breed....but they have never registered any of the pups they bred.

It also transpires that the breeder showed all the paperwork to the couple so 'they would know what he was sending them once the pups registration had gone through'.  I think they were trying to cut corners and not pay out any extra money as they also promised the pups would be microchipped and first vaccination completed but again they failed to deliver on both promises.  So the couple will be taking this further and hopefully the courts will make him register this pup - as he still can at the cost of only £60. 

Trading Standards will be very interested in this. Misdescription and misleading info on what they were purchasing. Sadly a dog is sold as 'Goods' and so they can chase him via Trading Standards.

Pathetic when you consider that registration is only £12 per puppy.  More likely by not registering the pups it is easier to keep commercial breeding under the radar, as that way the pups don't then have a paper trail back to them.

Thats a very good thought Brainless.  The bitch they bred from had 2 previous litters (I think the litter before most pups died).  And each time they breed they have sold the dogs and kept the bitches, they even said that they would be breeding from the bitches they kept - so yes by not registering them there is no proof that they are doing anything they shouldn't.

I wonder how many other people have tried chasing them and got no where....I know this couple will happily follow this up and will be contacting trading standards and the small claims court this week.

I think these kind of breeders know that once the pups are in their homes the owners won't pursue the paperwork if they get fobbed off.

The powers that be (Local Authority for Licensing, Tax man etc) can easily trace bona-fide KC registering breeders activities as it's there in the KC records for all to see for the price of a BRS subscription, but by not registering litters who can prove how many have been bred, the only way it so be watching a particular person and trawling for adverts, with so many using mobile numbers it's next to impossible unless someone is determined to find out.

Whilst persuing this the couple may encounter some authorities who do not understand the relevance of KC registered versus not.

I find it useful to liken it to buying gold marketed as 18ct and when you got it home, finding it hasnt got a hallmark....most magistrates/trading standards will get that!

Excellent toolz!