how are  cc allocated to the shows and who decideds is it the show or the kc who decide to drop them from a show.

KC decide. I'd love to know myself just how they decided as in my breed it makes no sense whatsoever!

The Kennel Club allows CC's to be issued, and they decide which shows have them based on the popularity of the breed and entry numbers at shows.

so say a show gets a consistant entry of just 11 dogs at the champ shows they should then in theroy have the cc taken away or does it have to be over so many years before the decision is made.

i am curious because i have been watching entries for some breeds where there are hardly any entries or what i would call very poor entries and they are still getting cc, and then there are others with classes that are over flowing with non on offer.

if a breed loose a set of cc how long before they can be reinstated

The KC allocates the number of sets available to each breed each year and then the available sets are allocated, so they tell us, by location but I find that hard to believe and wonder if the area of registration is also taken into account. Again we are led to believe the number entered at any one show are considered but sometimes I think the need to allocate a set in a particular location over rides the number that may be entered.

So if your breed has, say 12 sets allocated, one or two sets will go to breed clubs, then to Crufts, The National, Welsh Kennel Club, Scottish Kennel Club and at least one to a Group Championship show which leaves 5 to be allocated to other shows and those shows should be spread across the country but most breeds will tell you they are not.

So breeds with low numbers will only get a few sets of CCs, those with lots of dogs with get loads of CCs. think we have 16 and at the moment the average entry seems to be between 35 to 45 although some shows at the extremes of the county will get less and Crufts and popular judges may get more.

and they decide which shows have them based on the popularity of the breed and entry numbers at shows.

I'm not sure that is correct because Malinois got tickets when the registration figures went up, even though it wasn't more showdogs being registered but working dogs, and entries at shows hadn't increased. Then they went and gave us tickets at shows that historically have had as few as just 1 or 2 entries (not to mention Belfast when there only was ONE show line dog living in all of N Ireland!), and after one year removed the ticket from one of the champ.shows that always had the highest entry for the breed.

I believe they also have to make it so that each champ so has a reasonable number of CC breeds per group, so ti gets complicated.  some shows are outwith the entry numbers, like the four shows that have CC's for all breeds and Belfast i t seems which like with your breed gets very few entries, most of which will be from South fo the Border, but still less than a dozen dogs, as if is close to our breed club open show date, and the expense of going.

To be honest, I don't really like the CC thing. I think a lot of dogs miss out on being a champion if the CCs go to dogs already champions.  I think once your dog is a champion, he or she has earned its title so no longer needs to get CCs.  But  as champions still enjoy trying for BOB .maybe there could be a way to mark his or her BOB ,like Champion stars. Where a Champion can collect stars instead of CCs.  Or maybe Dogs should earn there Title through points ? Just my thoughts

That is the system they use in the USA. 

It could mean a lot more champions so it would no longer be so 'special' rather than an extra special quality dog. 

I'd like to see the RCC's count cowards a title as after all the judge signs that they consider the dog worthy of being a champion, but would hate to see the CC simply go to the best of the rest.

Also with points when you enter a show you won't know if the points will   worth competing for (you need majors with a minimum number fo dogs).  Wth CC's you know which shows will definately hae them (and those that don't hae cheaper entries) and find there aren't enough dogs there for your trouble, or worse people deliberately sabotaging points to stop a dog from winning them.

>I'd like to see the RCC's count cowards a title

I agree. I can't see why three RCCs from three different judges shouldn't equate to one full CC. Then a top-winning dog wouldn't be 'blocking' other dogs from gaining their titles, but the CC would still be going to the best dog out of all the entries, not just 'best of the rest'.

yes i agree. the RCC should count for something towards it.

It could mean a lot more champions so it would no longer be so 'special' rather than an extra special quality dog. 

Fully agree -Champions should be the best. I am getting very disillusioned with showing cats as they just keep adding new titles and have stopped titled cats from being shown in the Open class, which effectively means that having a mere Champion is worthless -it's just one step on a very tall ladder. I also DON'T agree that RCCs should count towards any title as the RCC winners have always been beaten, hence they were never the best.

That's why UK Champs are respected amongst other countries as it quite hard to make your dog up, I don't think RCC's should go towards making up a CH, the CC should go to the best on the day Ch or not. We have had a dog in our breed who has taken pretty much all the CC's for the last 2- 3 years now, do a begrudging him, nope he was the best on the day, he will be beaten one day and hopefully the breed in turn will take another step towards improvement as we all wish for a CC.

To note if you look at some European Kennels their dogs seem to have titles as long as your arm and not one in their kennel but nearly every dog, no way can they be that good through out the whole kennel so is the European titles as good?

> That's why UK Champs are respected amongst other countries as it quite hard to make your dog up

Not true always.  For us now a UK Ch title is looked on as meaningless, all you need are "3 friends", or better still a family member or 2 judging. 

I think most dogs that become title holders will have won more than just the 3 CC's, there will be quite a number of RCC's etc.  People will know which dogs titles have been gained this way, as worthy dogs tend to have a winning track record, not just 3 bit wins.

Problem is I would hope that am on friendly terms with the majority of people in my breed, some of these are those whose opinions I would respect above others, and value a top award from them.

My Jozi was made up by my main mentor (the other had only been alive long enough to see us win our first CC), she went on to win another 9CC's from a mixture of breed specialists (all of whom I am/was friendly with) and all rounders, though none other was as close a friend as the one who gave me her third.

It is not surprising that connections sometimes put dogs up as you tend to be friendly with those whose stock you admire and or have connections with yours and your likely to like their stock.

The alternative is to be mainly judged by non specialists, and we see the effects of that in the generic show dogs that often lack essential breed type winning in other countries, especially the USA where small breed entries mean very few specialist judges.

Maybe using overseas specialists is the answer, but even there, there will be plenty of knowledge of lines and most people deeply involved in breeds know their breed, dogs  and the breeders internationally.

It is true that dogs in Europe seem to have a string of titles because I suppose they travel between countries, you now see a few in the country now as well - it is also true you see a dog with a European title, or several, they has never and never will will anything in the UK.

Harkback - I find it down right insulting to say that you only need 3 friends to become a champion in the UK - insulting to the judges, the exhibitors and the dogs who have won well. It may be so in your breed or circle of friends but it not something I have come across.

Problem is I would hope that am on friendly terms with the majority of people in my breed, some of these are those whose opinions I would respect above others, and value a top award from them.


It's so easy to talk, isn't it. When my Ripley got her first ticket it was only because of a very small entry (according to other people, I mean.) When she got the second it was apparently because I knew the judge. (You know most judges in a rarer breed, like Brainless says and I dare say the others on the day also did.) When she got the third (with BOB, as was the two others) we really got revenge on those people talking as it was at Crufts against all the top winners in the breed and under a judge I didn't know personally BUT had had an argument online with about training methods only days before the show! So certainly no favours done there, it was simply a case of the best dog won.

Sorry my typing seems as if I was not awake at all, I can hardly understand it. What I meant to say was:-

It is true that dogs in Europe seem to have a string of titles because I suppose they are able to travel between countries, you now see a few in this country as well now - it is also true that many of these dogs from the UK with European titles have never and will never win anything in the UK.

Have redone as the system will not let me edit.