Hi all

We've got a 12 week Clumber pup (had him 2 weeks). We've been dealing with the playbiting in the usual ways - turning away, walking away, distracting with chews etc.
The last 2 days he's got really persistant - going for our legs as we walk away and hanging on to our trouser legs. At times its actually felt quite aggressive as there's been a bit of growling too. We've been using hide chews and twists to help with the biting - do these make puppies more hyper? Or is this just another phase in the chewing and biting process that needs to be got through?
Any other advice is much appreciated. 

I don't think they make them more hyper (unless they are the coloured ones) but they will be perceived as food rather than play toys which might escalate your pups excitement.  Hide chews aren't ideal as they soften into a horrible flobby mass that may cause problems with choking or blockages.  I also don't like them as the bits that get chewed off get splodged onto the carpet like glue!

I'd suggest keeping a box of teething type toys at your problem spots around the house - mine used to be the bottom of the stairs as any arrival caused huge excitement - and hand these out instead.  Experiment with a variety of hard rubber or plastic options to see what your pup prefers.  I used to keep mine in a plastic trug bucket but my latest pup decided he liked this better than the toys!  Kongs are very good and my pup liked some cheap plastic rings from Wilkinsons too.  He preferred his toys joined up by lengths of cord and would tow the bucket around the house.

It certainly sounds as if you are doing the right things to deal with the playbiting - you just have to persevere I'm afraid.  Don't worry about the noise, it's just his confidence and excitement and will soon subside or transfer to new objects if you are clear about what he can play with.  My youngest used to be quite vocal in his bucket fights, particularly when the bucket was winning! :)

Have you read The Bite Stops Here?  It's a great article and oft quoted on this forum.  Have a search and see what you think

hi i have clumbers to you have to be firn say no and push him away he has to learn this is not a game when you say no it means stop now  if he is in mad mode do not try to reason with him just wait untill he calms down then hold his head with both hands and stroke him gently talking all the time go down to his level and cuddly him up  if he bites or growls push him away say no and mean it go back to him in your time not when demands it and try again with clever handling it should stop in 2 days ihave 2 5mths old pups and went through this best of luck

Here is The Bite Stops Here

Have a read through, it tells of the impotance of NOT stopping play-biting very quickly, it's the ideal opportunity to teach pup to conrtoll the FORCE of it's bite before you stop all play-biting :)
That said, having him hanging onto your trousers is not very helpfull, LOL :-D

I tried leaving the room when my pup was like this, but me walking away only severed to entice him to chase me and bite my bum (he was a very big pup) getting him even more excited!!

In addition to dogs-a-babes advice of re-directing onto a suitable toy -
I found it easier to lead my pup calmly away to the kitchen and shut him in there when he was really OTT (behind a stair gate) for a few mins for him to calm down (the over-excitement leaves them unable to learn much!), he would then be allowed back with me and if he got OTT again = back to the kitchen. To start with I would lead him to the kitchen by clipping a lead to his collar, as he'd take the opportunity of me holding his collar, to chew and bite my arm!
As he got better, I would hold his collar and lead him away.

i cant see why you would want to teach him to control his bite he does not bite end of story he could hurt a child there big dogs they have to learnwhat is okay with fimness and love thats not hard and you have a dog you can trust and is apleasure

Thanks for the advice all. Yes, I've read the bite stops here - thats where we got our original advice from, that and the Gwen Bailey puppy book. We've got puppy class tonight too. I just wanted to be sure it wasn't something we're doing that's escalating the behavior.

i taught my lurcher to stop biting and bite inhibition the way described in the bite stops here and I'm very glad, a while back I trod on one of his legs by accident when he was sleeping and he woke up absolutely roaring and snapped at me - it was the gentlest 'bite' ever, I barely felt it despite him having a terrible fright and being in pain from my stupid clumsiness. It could have been quite nasty if he'd never learnt to control his bite.

>i cant see why you would want to teach him to control his bite

Because a dog that hasn't learned bite control (ie how to use his mouth gently) is a potentially dangerous dog.

Dogs who are scared and/or in pain will often snap; one that's learned bite control won't actually hurt you (it knows how to touch you safely), whereas one that hasn't is much more likely to.

> I just wanted to be sure it wasn't something we're doing that's escalating the behavior.

'The bite stops here' recomends making an 'ouch' sound when pup bites, and making it a loud one for less sensitive pups. However, we found that making any noise like that would escalate the playfullness, so in the end only used a gentle 'ah ah', to try to 'mark' the beahviour he was being segregated for (if that makes sense?)

As allready said, seems like you are doing a good job allready :) it's just that tiny little 'tweaks' in the approach can make a huge difference, if your pup gets even more 'revved up' with you making noise, then NOT making a noise will help :)

I doubt if it's anything you are doing, unless your pup is seeing "ouch" as a play signal. Older pups and terriers will often think this is the case, and just go in all the more! :)

Around 12 weeks up until quite a few weeks later, you will often find that the biting gets worse, esp. if you don't have another dog. If you are consistent, and have a good method, it will tend to end around 18-22 weeks and should not really go on any longer than that, if it does I'd seek professional advice because the pup will be overly pushy.

Are there any particular moments when your Clumber tends to play bite you? For example, if it is coming downstairs inthe morning, have a small handful of kibble ready to throw on the floor; this will do two things - encourage the pup to get into a good habit of not biting you at that time, and you will avoid the possible encouragement (albeit unintentional) and "conflict" at that time.

A few tips:

Lots of calm praise when the pup is choosing to relax, or do anything other than play bite. This makes it clear what is good behaviour.
Carry soft tuggie toys and distract pup by wiggling them and playing a short game. You can pre-empt the pup so that in time, he never actually gets around to grabbing your clothing :)
If it gets really bad, use a marker ("too bad" ) said calmly (never angrily) and take the pup out the room for a few seconds (or remove yourselves). You can do this up to 3 times, the 3rd time you can leave the pup out of the room for a bit longer, up to half an hour if necessary - this last is not for instruction, but to give you, the owners, a breather, as it can be hard dealing with a persistent puppy!!
Normally though, the time out should not be for more than a few seconds/up to about two minutes.

However, more emphasis should be on teaching, training, praise, showing what is acceptable, suitable playing, etc etc.
Oh and don't play fight or wrestle (I'm sure  you don't, but just in case!).

Lindsay
x

Hi,

Just one more thought to add to the pot. Sometimes it can be hard to walk away from a really persistent playbiter and the ensuing struggle to get him off your clothes, legs/ankles can make the whole thing even more enticing or you might inadvertently hurt him, which you don't want to do. I've found in this kind of situation that having the pup on a length of line (not too long), or even a lead, means that you can walk away from him sharpish the minute he starts up without getting into a tussle. You need to think in advance about tie up stations around the room. If pup starts going for ankles etc.. you can gently hold him away from you on the lead/line and quickly loop it around the tie station. You walk away and ignore him for 10 secs and then go back within striking range. Praise if he desists but simply walk away again if he tries it again and so on. The key is to give him enough line that he has a degree of freedom, but short enough that you can easily get out of his strike range as necessary.

It goes without saying that you never leave him alone in a room with the line on- strictly under supervision. This method keeps everything low key and unemotional on your part. And you're also not unwittingly exciting him with the 'ows' that are inevitable if he starts going for your skin. It also means that you can start to do the bite inhibition exercises, but move away easily if he loses control. You can also start to introduce verbal cues for good and 'bad' behaviour as well as introduce distractions to refocus him.

Hi There,

One thing I do with pups if they're bitey isto use a lead and tie them to a post, prefereably in the room it starts in orthe hallway is good. Take a toy and start a game the second you feel teeth on you, you and the toy move away from the pup. So if you use a 4 foot lead you would move backto 5 foot away, just out of reach. Turn your head and ignore all barky bits etc, when pup is a calmer go back and start the game again. Teaches not to bite people as they loose most important reward, YOU, teaches pup to start games with toys instead as well. Side effect is a dog that pushes toys at you for next 15 years!!

I believe bite inhibition is already taught by the bitch before 7 weeks but is undone by us humans inadvertantly playing games that encourage use of teeth at the wrong ages egtuggy games. You can play these when pup is older and wiser.

Try to remember that biting is also one way dogs start play games with each other. So whilst it's driving you mad at times at least your pup likes you!!! I have a lady inmy groupat the minute and I'm afraid her pup just doesn't like her!! He's shut down from her.

It does stop, it's a phase he's a gundog it'spart of his nature, stick with it you'll get there.

Thanks for all the advice - we're definately seeing an improvement, and we're much more able to anticipate when its likely to happen. If walking away doesn't work, we've puppy proofed the hallway, so we can stick him in there for a brief time out if needed.

I have a 9 wk old pup at the moment who has been told off by his grandmother for nipping her too hard .. which worked wonders very quickly ..if only we had the same affect !!... I have found  the nipping starts when he is getting sleepy which is when I pop him in his crate and he quickly falls asleep.
I can understand the nipping of the legs and feet as to them it is at eye level and the movement attracts thier attention easily. , I have small toys in all the rooms he is allowed in and a couple in my pocket at all times. 'Ouch' and 'no' are quickly becoming part of my vocabulary once again!!