I've been thinking about jabs.  My 2 existing dogs have been vaccinated using Nobivac at 7 & 10 wks old, by us.  (Breeder gave no jabs.)

But I'm thinking about the litter we hope to have later this year.  Especially about the pup we hope to keep, and the pup we will probably have to keep a couple of weeks longer than the rest because it's going abroad.

I've also been thinking that there has been a bit of a move amongst some vets, with the Eurican jab now being given at 8 and 12 wks.  (These are the Eurican requirements.)  Eurican believe that 10 wks is not late enough for the 2nd jab and that maternal antibodies may still interfere with it taking effect.

And I've been thinking that it's quite common in the US for pups to have 3 jabs, at least 3 weeks apart, with the final jab being given way over 10 wks.

Which is all to say:  Is it an entirely crazy idea for us to give the pup we keep and the pup which is going abroad a first jab at 6 wks (Nobivac is licensed for use from 6 wks), then a jab at 9 wks and 12 wks? 

I know this is 3 jabs and I've always in the past been very anti any jabs more than the required 2, but it is standard practice in the USA to give 3, and there is obviously concern about the 2nd jab being given before 12 wks by some vets.  If we could give that first jab at 6 wks, the pup which is going abroad would have better protection on its travels and we could also do more socialisation with that pup and the one we keep, beforehand.  Am I deluded or might this be a good idea?  What have I not thought of?

Hi Rabid,

When l was breeding, i used to have the first jab at, NOT BEFORE 10 weeks, and the second at 12 weeks. My thoughts were, as my dogs and bitches were quite heavily campaigned, they would carry quite a lot of immunity which would be passed on to their offspring. This being the case, in all probability, the pups would still have quite a bit of immunity left at 8 weeks, so negating the effects of vaccinating at the 8 week period. In fact, many years ago, a friend in my breed, had a litter who suffered very ill effects from being vaccinated at 8 weeks. From then on, she always had her litters titre level tested before immunisation. Another friend in a different breed, had her (v.expensive), imported, stud dog rendered infertile - the sperm were malformed -by her co-owners insistence that he be
given boosters. Her own Vet later told her, that in his opinion, it could be the result of the vaccination if the dogs titre level was already adequate at the time of the booster. He had sired several litters prior to this, and after a period of 12 months +, he mated her oldish bitch, and thinking that he was still infertile thought no more of it. YES, you've guessed right LOL, she had a lovely litter of 5. He had not received any boosters after that first time.

Of course,this was only my reasoning, but l did have a theory, that the reason Vets advocated 3 vaccinations, was because they couldn't safely say that the first one had done its job. Also, there's the monetary aspect as well LOL.

Why three jabs, why not just go for the 9 weeks and 12 weeks jab?

Just few things to think about...
Will you at 6 weeks know for sure who is staying and who is going abroad?
Where is the puppy going abroad going to(will be be flown over, driven)?
What do the import regulations say about vaccinations needed and time scales?
What is the view of the future owners?
In many countries they only START the vaccination at 12 weeks so they might not wish their puppy to have jabs at 6 weeks, they might wish to start the vaccinations after they get the puppy themselves.
Will the puppy also be receiving rabies jabs in the his/her new country? If so, yet another jab to tickle the immune system...

I certainly would not wish this to be done for my pup as I don't really see why should a such a young puppy to be given vaccination especially if it is to receive 2 more jabs later... Surely at 6 weeks the antibodies are very likely going to be there so why vaccinate then?
Also, I really do think in a normal environment in UK(not massive kennels, dogs in and out etc) likelihood of a puppy coming across any of the illnesses vaccination is for is pretty unlikely?

:) Just my thoughts but then I come from background where vets will NOT vaccinate before 12 weeks, second at 14 weeks and Rabies month later..

My pups were done at 10&12 weeks and this was only to get the pup going abroad to finish his vaccinations here before he went. It was discussed with the new owner that it would be less stress for his body/immune system to complete the course here whilst living in his birth home compared to starting his vaccinations straight after moving to new home/environment/country(if following his new home country's vaccination ages).
Other vise I would have gone for 12&14 weeks with the puppy I kept.

I sort of agree.

If all the pups in a litter are homed from here around 8 weeks then any I keep myself would nto be vaccianted until 10 and 12 weeks.

If as recently I still had two pups not spoken for at 8 weeks I decided I had best vaccinate them all so that they were fully vaccinated by the time I would allow the remaining pups to go to new homes when they came up, as I won't allow a part vaccinated puppy to leave here. 

This meant that one owner had to wait 10 days (as the first jab had already been given when I accepted them for the puppy) and then the stud dog owner decided they wanted the remaining show potential pup, and she was able to fly out a week after her second jabs, before she would have been required to have had Rabies vaccs (which then would have prevented her going for another few weeks, varies from 21 to 30 days depending on country).

Thanks for your thoughts - just to answer some questions...

>Why three jabs, why not just go for the 9 weeks and 12 weeks jab?

Well the pup would be going at 8 wks (earliest), so if the first jab wasn't till 9 wks, she would miss that one unless I gave one at 6/7 wks.

>Will you at 6 weeks know for sure who is staying and who is going abroad?

Yes, I'll make that choice then, at 6 wks.

>Where is the puppy going abroad going to(will be be flown over, driven)?

It will be flown to Canada.

>What do the import regulations say about vaccinations needed and time scales?

No vaccinations required for importing an 8 wk old puppy.  But I've been advised by many people (on here) not to fly a totally unvaccinated 8 wk old puppy, as the pup will be exposed to much in transit.  I would want to give the jab at least 1 wk before, so it has taken effect by time of travel.

>What is the view of the future owners?

Have not yet discussed it with them as too early, but want to have considered everything and have some thoughts before we first speak.

>In many countries they only START the vaccination at 12 weeks so they might not wish their puppy to have jabs at 6 weeks, they might wish to start the vaccinations after they get the puppy themselves.

In Canada the first jabs are given at 6 & 9 wks (everything except lepto), and then again at 12 wks (with lepto).  Rabies is also given at 12 wks.

>Will the puppy also be receiving rabies jabs in the his/her new country? If so, yet another jab to tickle the immune system...

Yes, but that's no different to any pup there - and my own pups have had rabies jabs at 12 wks also.

It's not really an option for me to delay vaccination to 10 & 12 wks, since I plan to take them to puppy play class from 8 wks (or 1 wk after first jab), and then to begin puppy class at 10 wks (2nd jab), and also at 10 wks to have them out and about.  I wouldn't want to delay all that through vaccinating later.

My vet advised me that they now recommend 3 jabs. One at 8 weeks the second at 10 and a third at 14-16. This is because about 10% of pups have a high level of their mothers antibodies preventing the initial vaccination course from taking effect.

I exported a puppy to Australia at 14 1/2 weeks 12 years ago, which included Rabies vaccination (but there was no waiting period).

In those days none of the vaccines were finished until over 12 weeks.

I carried pup around with me from 6 weeks old, and she had two weeks of actual going to class etc.

A months quarantine and out she came as bold as brass.

Last year I had another pup go to Australia this time timings meant she went at 12 1/2 weeks minus Rabies.  She was full vaccianted at 10 weeks from 11 weeks going for walks, and also after her months quarantine bounced out and started going to shows in Baby puppy classes, as did the other pup all those years ago.

A few weeks ago I sent out a puppy to USA at 11 weeks old, fully vaccinated minus Rabies a week before.  She had not been out for walks (neitehr had her sister that I kept), just seen traffic etc in my arms and car rides.  She also went straight to one of their fun matches a week later to continue her socialisation by her new owners (her sires owners) as no quarantine.

As she is going to be flying and long distance (possibly kennels involved?) I agree she is better off having some protection, from maternal antibodies or if that has worn out from a jab she has received :)
So in this case I too would be vaccinating (but maybe not as early as 6 weeks :))

That makes me think of another question :)
If you have lets say 10 pups and only 2 will be vaccinated is that ok?
Is there any risk of exposing the rest to vaccinated pups?
Even if it is just a risk of their bodies being stimulated so that they might not take to their vaccinations when they receive them?

This was my problem Noora and why my pup was vaccianted along with the unhomed ones, rather than later as I prefer. 

Certainly in humans vaccines can shed, and live vaccine can, so I would prefer not mix vaccinated and unvaccinated pups.

I think that, if we did vaccinate the 2 we still had, we would wait till the rest of the litter had gone to new homes and then vax the 2 we still had.  So perhaps at 7 wks.

>My vet advised me that they now recommend 3 jabs. One at 8 weeks the second at 10 and a third at 14-16. This is because about 10% of pups have a high level of their mothers >antibodies preventing the initial vaccination course from taking effect.

Isabella, this is what one of my vets recommends too - although she won't do it if the owner doesn't want 3 jabs, but it is what she recommends.  I at first thought this was crazy and was quite strongly against it, but having learnt of 2 other vet practices in the area which have switched to Eurican (8 wks and 12 wks) because they want to give the 2nd jab later, I don't think she is in the minority any more. 

The reason vets give 2 injections at the moment is because of the action of maternal antibodies.  See the relevant section on primary booster in this link

http://www.intervet.co.uk/Products_Public/Nobivac_DHPPi/090_Product_Datasheet.asp 

I was questioning my vet only this morning on why their website still recommends all dogs have annual boosters when she had just agreed that the licensed minimum duration of immunity was three years for the core vaccine of distemper, adenovirus and parvo.  Re-vaccination against kennel cough or parainfluenza and leptosirosis is recommended annually - although i must admit to doubts about the efficacy of those too.

Obviously the practicalities of when the pups need to be travelling to their new homes has a major bearing on when the pups are vaccinated.  My vets get very uncomfortable when i start asking questions about subjects like vaccination :-)