Just wondering if there are any natural or herbal calming products that are suitable for use on over-exciteable dogs.  We have a 5 month old setter puppy and despite 2 and a half hours of walking/ running before ring craft last night she was still completely mental at the class.  As she is only young I really can't give her any more exercise as she's already well over the recommended amount.

We don't want to dope her up or destroy her enthusiasm but I just wondered if there is anything available natural or herbal (not prepared to use any drugs on her) to help her calm down and give her a chance at focussing.  There are lots of products on the market for horses and from personal experience I know that these can be quite effective, but I haven't seen anything for dogs.

Any advice would be very very appreciated!

I'm no expert but would suggest you give her some brain work rather than a lot of exercise. I have a working Beardie and if I give him a lot of exercise I get a fit dog who would go for ever. Give him some brain work and he's much more settled.

Teach her to search for food in a kong or for a toy. Try a bit of clicker training you can use that at ringcraft too. Teach her a few tricks which can be used to focus her attention while waiting to be gone over.

All that exercise could actually be tiring her so she can't concentrate
HTH

The first thing you need to do is cut DOWN on the walking. At 5 months of age, as you know, your dog should have no more than 25 minutes per walk, twice a day. Not only is it dangerous to over exercise a growing pup  but you can actually make pup more hyper by too much exercise. (Having said that, being hyper is being a puppy! :) It's normal, enjoy it for what it is -temporary. I have two 6 months old and I swear they both have wings as never do I see them with all four legs on the ground. It is also far, far better to have a happy, excitable puppy than a shy one that doesn't enjoy what you are doing. ) Try some mental stimulation instead of exercise. Some actual obedience exercises, some searching for hidden items, that sort of thing -that will tire her out a lot more than exercise. Clicker training is perfect for it as it makes the dog think. Secondly, consider what food she is is on as some foods do have the effect of making the dogs extra hyper active -one in particular springs to mind, but there are a few others too.

Snap with Cava14Una -must have typed at same time LOL!

I agree, try brain activities, more satisfying as well as tiring, than a route march. It is not good to over exercise a pup and could result in damage to joints etc.. long term.

I'd also look at her diet- sometimes too much protein can make a dog hyper -the reasons are complex. Equally, a reaction to cereal bulkers etc.. might have an effect.

I'd also speak to your breeder, as it might be a phase that occurs in this breed/line- The breeder ought to be able to give you advice on this. Don't make any changes to diet etc.. before speaking with the breeder. If they cannot help try the breed club. As specialists they are best placed to advise you. 5 month old pups can seem mental!

Are you giving her timeouts and the opportunity to calm down, ultimately getting her to associate calm behaviour with your presence, and OTT behaviour with you walking away from her? It's a similar technique to that recommended to treat OTT play biting.

I would not try herbal preparations on a developing pup without first consulting with your vet- even if natural/herbal they are still a new chemical that you are introducing to her system.

I was also going to point out you are over exercising her, there could be major joint problems at a later date if you keep on.
Her little doggie brain needs stimulating!! Also what are you feeding her? so muich of it is filled with horrid additives which has the same effect on dogs as it would toddlers.

First I would cut down on the exercise - majorly.  As others have said your pup should have no more than 25 mins, you could be causing a lot of damage by over exercising her.  Also the more exercise you give a dog does not always mean it keeps them worn out...generally they get used to it and want it all the time.
I would suggest short walks which include brain work, practice your recalls, stays and heelwork.  At home give your pup brain activities,  get her hunting for treats in the garden, train her, let her use her brain.  And make sure she is getting lots of rest, put her in an enclosed area to sleep.
Pups are pups, some are hyper and harder work, some are easy, my youngest (now 20mths) has been harder work than others but she has a heart of gold and loves everyone and everything...I enjoy her enthusiasm which has now started to calm and she's turning into a lovely adolescent.

I have found a big difference in my over the top hyper BC after changing him to raw food.
He is still incredibly enthusiastic about life, but not quite as manic as he was - friends called him the whirling dervish !
He was eventually taught that he only got stroked when sitting but he could even spin in circles whilst sitting down lol

Ditto to all who say you must cut down on the exercise.  You can do so much more at home and around the garden to tire a puppy.  Puppies need a lot of sleep but this is interspersed with very awake periods when they zing into life and you need to be ready with an activity to amuse, or educate them.  A few minutes practising recall, sit/stay, walking to heel etc is all good to focus the mind and help calm your pup

At 5 months many breeds will start to appear much more like the adults they will become but I understand that setter breeds will take longer and breed specific advice will be helpful.  Contact your breeder - the chances are that your pup is exactly like others in the litter -  and maybe see if you can network with other owners too.  It's always reassuring to know that you aren't the only one standing outside in the rain waiting for your pup to run circuits round the flower bed!!

Some of what you describe actually sounds much more like overtiredness.  When they get very tired they just can't concentrate and you get the zoomies or completely over the top behaviour.  Ring craft in the evening is often not great timing for pups - mine would much rather have been asleep. 

At this age a pups sleep/play pattern is still strongly linked to mealtimes so you might be able to tweak things a little to ensure it fits better with ringcraft.  Working with your pups natural rhythm will help you to avoid the slightly hysterical periods when your pup just can't focus :)

Finally: diet is key to growing happy healthy pups - what do you feed for mealtimes and what treats do you use?

Sent a PM.

I am afraid that level of exercise for ANY breed at this age is totally uncalled for at best, and potentially harmful at worst.

At best, the mroe exercise you give a dog the more it will require. 

Is this bitch from working or show/pet lines?  Have you spoken to the breeder about her?  Have you had her assessed by a vet?  TRULY hyper dogs are rare and it is, IMV, an overused and abused term; one man's "hyper" is another person's "drive".

Cut down on the physical exercise
Increase mental exercise
Review diet (additives)
Vet check to ensure dog does not have an underying medical condition
Get an "expert" to observe your dog to determine whether it is your DOG that is the issue, or your lack of handling techniques.
If, after all of the above, you feel that you need to take action, there are a number of routes you can try

Herbal
Homeopathic
Mineral
Flower Essences
Amino Acids
Acupuncture

etc

Hi,

Thanks for all the advice - I'll definitely take it on board

Sorry I didn't make it very clear she doesn't get 2 1/2 hours every day - i was trying to wear her out before ringcraft to help her focus and she had that in  4 walks at different times and a play in the garden.

She goes out for 1/2 hour in the morning on and off the lead with stays, sits etc. worked in and then as I work during the day she is crated for a couple of hours - dog walker comes in and takes her to the park for 20 mins or so and she has some time in the garden.  When I get home from work she has another 1/2 hour on or off the lead to help with her training, socialisation and heel work and then time outside in the garden - before bed she'll have a 10 minute walk around the block to make her go to the toilet.  She has a LOT of energy and I thought that helping her to burn it off might enable her to be more focussed - but clearly this was the wrong thing to do and I didn't realise it could actually make her more energetic, obviously I know that the fitter she is the more exercise she'll need.

I know what the exercise guidelines are for her breed and she isn't meant to run off the lead for hours on end but its very difficult to stop her at home from charging around without crating her all day. 

She is from working lines and is a breed with a naturally huge drive for running and that when adult require a LOT of exercise.  At the moment is on Royal Canin junior maxi which is quite high in protein so I think this may have something to do with her boundless energy.

When she's at home she'll still run up and down the hall come into the lounge jump onto a sofa run to the next jump onto that then out into the hallway and repeat this over and over again - this is why I thought it'd be better to take her out on the lead for a training walk instead.

As for mental stimulation - she really just doesn't get it she has Kongs, dog toys etc. but is very easily distracted - she's just a typical setter puppy, not manic or anything just a typical setter.  I will up these though and if anyone has any tips or ideas for things she'd enjoy it'd be much appreciated.

She is clicker trained and attends classes weekly where the instructors just describe her as easily distracted and having endless energy she is well behaved though and I do have a relatively good grasp of training techniques as I've trained dogs before.  I've just never needed a young puppy to focus in the show ring before - usually I give my girls lots of time to grow up before expecting too much from them.  This girl is going to be shown though so does need a bit of focus. 

In horses its very common to use a calming suppliment or to feed a calming feed but all the puppy feeds seem to be very similar.  I'll have a read up about RAW diets so thanks for that advice.

Seriously, talk to the breeder. Often they will know what to do, what to feed and what to expect. I'm not clear if this pup is your first setter- perhaps the breeder can help fill in the gaps. Even if you've had setters before, sometimes a line can have particular traits, perhaps this line is a bit more hyper and the breeder can advise you on strategies and what to expect.

In my own breed (terriers) some pups go through the most extreme playbiting phase, so much so that they remind one of vicious gremlins. The uninitiated might think there was something wrong with the pup.

Sometimes you just need to go with the character of the dog, I've trained dogs like yours you have to just learn to go with the dog, if they are not quite ready, they are not quite ready, I've often pulled back and waited, some dogs are just more hyperactive and full of the joys of life, with age and maturity they calm.

Your doing all the right things re: training, no point in giving you the abc's  as you say you are confident in training along with the classes, you'll know eventually it will all fall into place, she's a happy soul, probably excited at seeing other dogs too, eventually it will become run of the mill, do you have other dogs who are good role models? If not this is probably part of her excitement, but as you know that will diminish with age, if you have other dogs this can often make a huge difference to a dog calming much quicker as round about this age they will begin to tell her off and put her in her place.

Just continue to practice, I do feel for you though, but it's just her character for now. :-)

pleased that OP brought up the over excersise bit. I posted on 'a well known doggy persons page' re this and got lots of abuse from posters, seemingly unheard of by them. lots think the physical excersise is what they need when its is mental stimulation that would perhaps help.

She sounds like shes doing ok with training so thats good, does she get lots to chew? sounds a bit silly but after my dogs have demolished a good bone they are dead to the world! I also have a puppy and she is completely bonkers at the moment, as you say running up and down the hall etc...Lots of puppys do seem overly energetic but grow into lovely relaxed adults. In the house i entertain the pup with milk cartons stuffed with treats, bones, lots of toys, and little training periods. As someone else said aswell too much exercise can create an over energetic dog! does she get time to just chill and not be stimulated or are you always trying to entertain her?

>When she's at home she'll still run up and down the hall come into the lounge jump onto a sofa run to the next jump onto that then out into the hallway and repeat this over and over again - this is why I thought it'd be better to take her out on the lead for a training walk instead.

A couple of spins around the room are ok but if it goes on for longer than that, and/or if it bothers you, you can halt this behaviour.  With my dogs this phase often happened (and with the 9 month old sometimes still does!) just before they have sleep and is quite natural but don't extend it by walking.  Ideally you want to slowly calm your pup.  I used to move my pup into an ever decreasing space by closing a few doors or shepherding him to a safer area.  Then offer him something to do like a short play session with a favourite toy, then swap that for a still activity like a stuffed Kong (freeze to help it last longer).  He'd chew for a bit then konk out!

It helps to rotate toys to keep them fresh, and so that you can always distract them with one they haven't seen in a while. 

I feed raw, and there are a good of few of us on here that do.  As someone else has said - a bone or can be brilliant to entertain and tire a puppy out.  A frozen, or partially defrosted, turkey neck can last ages and they often don't get distracted from something they see as food!!

Thanks

I thought I was being more constructive by stopping her doing it and taking her out for a walk but I guess she'll get bored after 5 minutes of doing it and I take her our for 20 mins instead so I'm really not helping the situation.

I'm going to get her a selection of new toys and put them on rotate to try and keep herr interest.  I'll pick her up a new kong and some bones to play with I like the idea of frozen chicken nneck etc. as it'll take her a while to get through it.  Should I be looking to stop her from using her energy and put her in her crate top calm down when she's having one of her crazy half hours rather than walk her and just ignore her when she howls or use it as a time out when she gets too OTT?

I'm so used to the older dogs who will happily run for 3 hours straight and still want more I guess I just didn't realise how potentially harmful it could be.  I thought by breaking her walks up into 25 minute sections it would be ok to give her a bit more exercise as it wasn't all in one go.

I'll review her diet as from what I've read RAW seems to be a popular natural choice so I'll do some more investigating.

Thanks so much for all the advice

>Should I be looking to stop her from using her energy and put her in her crate top calm down when she's having one of her crazy half hours rather than walk her and just ignore her when she howls or use it as a time out when she gets too OTT?

I can only speak from my experience based on what works for me and mine but a bit of zooming is absolutely fine - I would put some control on it to reduce the risk of injury when flinging themselves about, and I'd curtail the time spent doing it, but I don't try to stop it altogether.

I'd slowly restrict the area they're zooming in, bouncing off the furniture was always a big no because of the chances of joint damage but also just cos I don't want the dogs to think that room is a play place.  Once I'd slowed the pup down a bit (and he was plotting what to do next) I'd whisk him out for a wee then start to engage him in a new activity.  Just remember that brain training or just concentrating is much more tiring for a puppy than walking

Mine are crate trained but I never put them in until their needs are met (same goes for my adults).  I prefer to work with their timings and only really confine them when they are tired or due a sleep.  If you try and shut a puppy in when it's fully awake you just get a puppy that yells!  Better to pop the pup on a lead if you want to restrict movement or encourage them to sleep - it's handy to practise a bit of close lead walking around the house whilst they calm down too.  Once the pup is getting droopy you can then walk it to it's bed in the crate.  A very awake puppy will not understand the concept of time out and you can create an aversion to bed time or the perceived comfort of a crate bed.