Hello,

This is probably another daft question, but every so often I come across a little showing etiquette quirk that I never expected.  Now, if in doubt, I always check here first rather than make a faux pas!

My boys did very well at an open show recently, obviously my tastes are similar to this judge.  She's judging again in a couple of months at another open show (so 3 or so months between the shows).  Is it ok for me to enter under her again so soon?  I know it technically 'should' be, but I know for champ shows there are certain circumstances where you wouldn't go under the same judge again, let alone just 3 months later!  As a newbie, I've never actually shown under the same judge twice...  I know that it is inevitable after a while, this just seems very soon.

Thanks :-)

Clare

Interesting one!

I was at a doggie talk recently by a championship judge in many breeds. She was saying the thing she HATES is to see the same dog 'chasing around after her'.

Most people will show under a judge again if it was a puppy and they want an opinion on it as an adult.
Won at a show and then the opportunity to go under them again if they are giving CCs.

And even if they have won a CC they sometimes will show again at Crufts....seen as a special case.

There are no rules but its not nice to make yourself an 'awkwardness'.

Be interesting to see other answers, but for my part if I've done well under a judge at a general open show, I won't show under them again until they are judging at the next level up - i.e. breed club open show, then champ show.

If you have BOB under someone once, then not much point in my book - best case you get BOB again, worst case you get beaten LOL.

M.

Thanks... not BOB if that makes a difference, but 1st places in large classes (that's a BIG success for me!!!!)

Maybe I should give it a miss then!  It's a shame because the first show was local to my mum, who I happened to be visiting, and the second show is local to me... so I wouldn't even be 'chasing' her as I'd have entered both shows anyway!

At Open shows it wouldn't bother me the slightest -and in my breed the open shows desperately need the entries and good judges deserve a good entry. At champshows I will not show the same dog under a judge that has given the dog a CC before -but I will if it was just an RCC or a different dog. Only exception would be I'd show under a judge at Crufts even if they had given my dog a ticket before, or at either of the two breed championship shows.

I entered a show without looking at who the judge was.. turned up, and it was a judge who gave me a BOB just weeks earlier.. I got BOB again, and it was the most horrible feeling ever.. I often wonder if I got the place because he felt he had to, or Tia actually deserved it.. because, It also gave her the final point she needed for her ShCm. What should have been a super day, was very anti-climax

I'm sure she deserved it Kay! To the OP, if the shows were further apart in time, say a year or more, it wouldn't bother me. But 3 months is quite soon. OTOH, if you would have entered the show anyway, and there isn't another handy one that you want to go to, it shouldn't be that big a deal just for an open show. There might be other dogs there that the judge prefers, or you might get good results again, who knows. In general I wouldn't go under the same judge unless it was from puppy to adult to veteran, or from open to champ, or just a year or so apart. After all, if for example you got BOB but the entry was small, it would still be worthwhile getting the judge's opinion of your dog at a different show where the entry would be different.

If a person judges at a few Open Shows in a season they have to expect to see some of the same dogs, particularly if they are held in a close geographical area.

Perhaps breed numbers and class sizes are relevant; in our breed we can have such small entries at open shows that it would be doing the judge and the organising show committee a disservice not to enter, even if you were placed well last time.

Its a tricky one this.. HHMMM... you could be in classes with completely different dogs (if the shows were a fare distance apart?) so maybe there would be a dog thats as equally nice as yours so it won't definitely be the case that the judge will place you first so that would make it ok (IYKWIM ) 
If it is a show you usually enter couldn't you enter an AV class if you decide you don't want to risk making an etiquette mistake?
Paula xxx

If a judge chooses to judge twice the same breed in the same area then they would expect the same dogs and it truth it is not a good idea for a judge to do this as they will not in the end get an entry as there is little point in having the same judges opinion of the same dog in such a short period.

Twelve of more months apart is OK because the judge is likely then to see the dog as a new dog and if you win again then it will be on merit and not because the judge remembers the earlier time.

Back to your question - you can enter if you wish but there is little point in doing so with the same dog. The judge will place as she sees on the day and you may or may not win but it will not tell you much about your exhibit although it may tell you something about the judge.

Thanks everyone.  Just to clarify, the shows aren't particularly close geographically.  I tend to do a lot of Merseyside shows (where my mum lives) and a lot of North East/Yorkshire shows (where I live).  My initial thoughts were that because neither of my dogs took BOB, it may be worth entering under her again with a different selection of dogs a) to see how she rates them compared to the competition in a different region of the country b) to see if we can improve on our 1st places from last time.  I realise it's entirely possible, if not probable, that we'll do worse than last time, but that's something I always consider when entering a show.  Of course I really don't want it to be awkward for myself or the judge though. 

There is no reason why you should not enter but the judge may think you are following them around the country - think I would try to give it at least 6 months with a youngster and about 12 for an adult.

I'd say Clare if you're talking open shows and you haven't gone BOB under this judge then I see no reason not to enter your boy again under this judge.

I see many people who have got CC's under certain judges and still go under them again with the same dog, and no we aren't talking a special show like Crufts.. Even reading the critiques the judge makes reference to say that he is dismayed to see he's already given a CC to this dog before...
There are also many dogs who will still enter under a judge at an open show where they have gone BOB and have ShCM etc, makes no odds to them, winning is all that matters to them..

As long as you're still enjoying your time showing and does your dog then I think that is all that matters..

To be fair, the ages both your boys are at, they are still changing/maturing.  I would enter under her.  It is a local show for you, and would not only be a shame to miss it, but you would also be supportive of the club by giving them (not just the judge) your entry.  Hope this helps in your decision :-)

At open shows i will not enter a dog under under a judge that has already given that dog a best of breed, however if they where placed first in there class and never got best of breed i would enter under them again. I cant see the point of putting the same dog back under the same judge after you have got a best of breed from them. We show with in a catch ment area for open shows and will not leave it unless we are on holiday and pull a show in, cant see a point to paying 5 quid to enter a show and 50 quid of petrol there and back. I belive most judges sign contracts not to judge the same breed within a so many month time frame and a so many mile radius anyway so if you are showing in a area only this should not happen to much anyway :)

I cant see the point of putting the same dog back under the same judge after you have got a best of breed from them.

The point is, you get your ShCM point. And you give the judge an entry. And the breed. And the competition won't be the same each time, nor will the dogs all necessarily be in the same condition as previous times so placings can change. AND you need points won in the group, which often will be under a different judge even if the breed judge is the same.

I have been at many shows with poor entries where the judge has profusely thanked the exhibitors for taking time out of their lives to enter under them (even champshows). Many open shows are removing breed classes if there aren't enough entries, so personally I feel that where there are classes for my breed, and it's a venue I can get too within a reasonable distance, then it's my duty as a breeder and exhibitor to support my breed classes. A couple of dogs entered and a catalogue bought will only cost about a tenner, so it's the least I can do. But I can't travel very far for open shows unless they are breed shows as of course we all have to take petrol costs into consideration as well.

I am all for giving the judge an entry but to go under the same judge twice within 12 weeks is for me too close even with a puppy but if someone is happy to do so or they particularly want to support the classes then that is fine. No hard and fast rules as it depends on so many things and everyone must decide for themselves if they are acting in the best interests of the breed.

Think it is a different matter for the judge and to judge in the same area within 3 months is to me far to close and does no favours for the judge, breed or show society.

Our girl has her shcm and all points scored under different judges so we dont need to chase shcm points, as i was told when we got our first best of breed( which was a huge surprise ) it is etiquette not to go back under the judge again. So being new to showing and not wanting to get on anyones bad side we listened. Even if we dont take our girl as the judge has given us best of breed before we will still give a entry with our puppys to surport the judges and the societys as we still want classes for our breeds on and to surport the kind people who judge and help boost their numbers. As there are no rules against it there is nothing wrong with going back under a judge who has given you BOB, however like showning a bitch in season you can upset a lot of other people who may see it as bad etiquette.

In this case though the judge is judging in a different geographical area and the poster only won a class.

I have been under the same judges many times at open shows!  Mainly because we don't get many entries and often it's just me and a couple of other people.  I suppose it's one of those 'rules' that's different for different breeds.

As there are no rules against it there is nothing wrong with going back under a judge who has given you BOB, however like showning a bitch in season you can upset a lot of other people who may see it as bad etiquette.

In my breed it wouldn't -if anything it would be seen as bad etiquette to not enter as the judge may end up with no entries at all. Normal entry for us 2-3 exhibitors at open shows.

Totally agree with Goldmali, if we don't support our judges then we keep on loosing classes and it takes an inordinate amount of time for any judge to get any experience. It is the dog on the day, just because they have done well before they might meet different competition or play up. People often look further than the breed jusge to see who is doing the group and if it is someone due to judge our breed ( or likes it) then they would be even more keen to enter.

However a couple of times is fine, stalking is something different :)   

Oh well if it was 1sts rather than BOB and it's in a different area like you say, I wouldn't worry too much.

I would agree with Sawheaties - in breeds with low entries, it can be the only way to keep the classes on and to give the judges enough numbers to progress.

My older male has 41 BOBs at Open Shows.  I have only shown twice under a judge that gave him BOB before (Club Open Shows excepted) - once when there were only two present the first time, and another time when the second show was a breed supported show.  Neither time did I get BOB, as the competition was quite different to the first time, and it was in a different geographic location.  I have frequently entered under a judge twice, but not taken the dog, just to preserve the classes - the only difficulty there is that it may lead the judge to expect a bigger entry to judge than will be the case.  It is considered perfectly acceptable to enter a Breed Club Open Show if the judge has given you BOB at another Open show.

As a judge, I have in some cases had my hands on the same dogs several times at various stages of my career (and theirs), and the results have varied depending on the condition of the dog on the day and the level of competition against them on the day.  I wouldn't expect them to turn up again and again though, having already had BOB, and I'd be disappointed if they did.

At Championship shows in my breed, it is usually considered perfectly acceptable to show again under a judge who has already given you the ticket if the second time is a Club Show or Crufts, but not otherwise.  If there is a change of judge on the day to one who has already awarded a CC to your dog at a normal Ch. Show, it is most sporting to withdraw, with or without a lap of honour.

Edited to say:  If I had only had 1sts under a judge, but not BOB, then I would most certainly enter under the same judge again.