Following the recent post about the plasma transfusion saving fading pups lives I was discussing it with some people on a pug related board, and one of the members said she had had this done several years ago with similar succesful outcome for the remaining pups, and was (her Vet believed) the first to have used this method in the USA. She then added an interesting item which I wanted to post here in case it helps any other litters in trouble. Ever since that event, whenever she has a bitch whelping, she takes a little of the colostrum from the bitch, 'milking her' for the first couple of days, and saving/freezing the resulting colostrum containing milk in tubes obtained from her vet which are normally used for blood samples. Her vet has told her it has a safe, frozen, life of 3 years without losing effectiveness. She can then administer it to the bitches own litter is she gets into trouble with a future litter. Of course, if it is a first time bitch she can also administer save colostrum from another bitch. She has only had to do this once or twice, but says it gives here great peace of mind to know it is on hand. Anyone want me to ask her any further questions I will be happy to do so.
Gwen

Hi,I had heard you can do this but haven't known any details, do you mind answering a couple of queries please? How long after whelping can it be collected? 48 hours maybe? I dont give yearly boosters ( they are vacc as puppies) so would "my" colostrum be as useful as from a recently vaccinated bitch? If its best from vaccinated bitches when would be the optimum time to vaccinate so that the colostrum collected would be maximum usefulness? Any other info would be gratefully received too. Thanks in advance.

Hi WL & Gwen, I find this really interesting & would also like more info. Would just like to mention tho WL, I`m no longer giving my lot yearly boosters either but doing titres & I thought that if the dams have high titres then antibodies would be passed on to the pups?? Gwen, can you just put those tubes straight into the freezer with colostrum in them? Thanks for all this info, its v good of you to share it with us.
Christine2

I also have dog colostrum in my freezer. I simply milked her into a film containr and froze it. I know how invaluble colostrum is in weak babies, lambs, calves and kids so must be the same for pups.
Ted

Hi, just got answers back from USA to the first couple of questions asked, so here they are: Friend in USA collects Milk/Colostrum for 1st 3 days, simply toppping up the tube with each addition, and re-sealing the top. The vaccination status is different over there (all have Rabies shots, for a start) however, she pointed out that she is looking for the natural maternal anti-bodies generally, and not just those for parvo, lepto etc, and is just happy to go with whatever natural immunity the mum can provide against general infection to which tiny babes can sucumb.

re: Vaccinations and problem which has cropped up as this thread progressed. I only do puppy vaccinations, too. About 4-5 years ago 2 pups of mine went to 2 members of the same family. They were both unwell after the first vaccination, one being worse than the other, he was so woozy when he came home from the vet he could not stand, and slept for 12 hours. Vet said not to worry, common reaction. After 2nd vaccination the 1st puppy was again sleepy, lost appetite, but recovered within 24 hours. Unfortuantely 2nd puppy became unconcious within an hour of the shot, had to be rushed back to the vet, and was on a drip for 2 days, not sure if her would come round at all. The poor little chap had almost 2 years of hell after this, his immune system was completely destroyed, he got allergies, thyroid problems, digestive prblems, runny, saw eyes - you name it , he had it. The vet would never admit it was the vaccine, and refused to fill in one of the adverse reaction forms! Since then I have been vary wary of boosters, and read all I could from Catherine O'Driscoll, who has a lot of interesting things to say on the subject.
Gwen

Hi Gwen have been watching out for the update - very useful info - thanks!

Hi Gwen
Thanks for that post. It is good to know that plasma transfusion has been done and was successfull in the USA. I got the feeling that the article I read on the internet which made me suggest it to my vet may have been American. It is just a shame that vets do not have a forum like this where they can bounce the new treatments off each other!
Thanks for the info on the colostrum too. Am glad to hear the freezing does not kill the anti-bodies. The next bitch we breed I will be doing some milking for sure. I presume that if needed you would tube it into the puppies?
Anne-Marie

Westie Lover
I'm interested to hear you don't give yearly boosters. Thistle is due for her first booster juat now.
Jane

Hi thistle, I do worry sometimes that I should, but I dont encourage doggy visitors and those that do come to stay/visit HAVE to have been vaccinated regularly. I live in the middle of no where and the only dog they may come into contact with is the farmer next doors dogs - which are vaccinated. I only exersise them on country paths/fields near my home ( which no-one else uses) and am not showing at the moment. When I do get back in the ring I will vaccinate whoever I am showing. Its a bit like the quandry of giving kids the MMR, I worry about side effects or bad reactions to vaccination. If I move to a more built up area where they will come into regular contact with other dogs/where other dogs have been, then I will do them all.

Hi Jane, like Westie I no longer give annual vaccinations but I'd never miss out on puppy vaccs or the first booster. I live in similar place to WL and after the first booster I have the dogs done every three years. I was satisfied that this was safe until a recently acquired pup showed signs of what could have been distemper. Thankfully it wasn't but though I still think that three yearly boosters is probably a safe compromise, I worry about it much more now :-(.

Jane just something to mull over
I gave all mine boosters last year I noticed soon after Sophie was not great put it down to the bad weather and increased her Glucosamine and primrose . she was 14 then she is now dead , I know she was a good age but she was doing ok up till the booster.
My bullmastiff Babs developed hypothyroidism age three and although recovered I may never get her coat right again and she was half way to her title
Alice got sick and did not make it . her immune system was low
I have been devasted this year and I am still in bits
I may be wrong but Iam convinced the boosters are at fault
I will never boost again
Mari

Hi Mari, I never boost either, and Im not ashamed of the fact, and nobody will convince me differently. They ALWAYS have their puppy innoculations, and thats it!!

Phillipa the worst part is I only gave the booster because of the new strain of parvo.
I thought better be sure than sorry .
I am sorry very very sorry . and very very lonesome for my girls .
I have since done so much research and reading on the subject I am
convinced .
It seems the course when puppies is all that is needed , the immune system will build itself up from thereon .
more vaccine destroys the immune system
How I wish I had known
mari

Hi Mari, and Dot, I must be honest and say I havnt done a lot of reasearch, I have based it on ( wait for the flack to hit) that our children dont have boosters every year, for their infectious diseases There bodies then start to build their own immunity. I have read however, that even if pups have had their parvo jab done, they can still catch it , but a much milder dose, the same as a child with measles. Mari, I wouldnt normally have been brave enough to post my thoughts on his topic, but as you did, I thought Id join you. Reading between the lines, I can see you are tearing yourself to pieces over this, and miss your girls terribly. I truly dont think this was a factor towards your girls going, but do understand how it has made you feel :( If we had had a new strain of parvo in the area, Im sure I would have done the same, even if it was only the parvo jab I had boosted.
Dot, please do research, and read up about it, before you take mine and Maris word. It is just how we feel about it, and it is a big decision to make. I wish you all the best whichever way you decide to go.

Oh Mari thats the way I`ve been feeling. I feel so worried that I`ll probably never breed another litter again as I dont think I could take the worry. But whats done is done & the only thing to be gained is we did our best (and more) with what we knew so dont go on feeling bad. We just keep on learning. Chin up.
Christine2

Mari & Philippa,
Oh dear. I think I'd better read up on some previous threads abouts jabs. Toby's due his booster and now I'm not sure whether to have him done or not. He got the full jabs done last year because it wasn't known when he'd been done before that and I had to show he'd been done to join the training class.
I'm glad you're making me think about it and I'm not trying to open another can of worms :d one is more than enough thank you :D :D :D :D
Dot

Mari,

Could you send me some info please on the new strain of parvo?
We have seen more corona virus around my area and it is being diagnosed as parvo a lot

Theresa

Gwen

Would you mind if I passed this info onto my friend who does puppy rescue please?
She will be particularly interested in the fact that one bitch's colostrum can be used for other bitches puppies

Thanks

Theresa

Hi Theresa, Yes, I have permission to pass on any of the information I gave, and for it to be circulated, hope it can help any pups in trouble.
Gwen

Teresa I do not have any info more than what my vet told me .It was last september when my puppies were born and became sick one week later .
We saved them all . but it was very frightening
I asked vet why if the mom had been vaccinated did the puppies get sick he said it was a new strain .
Bugs are becoming immune to all vaccines by reproducing the new bacteria themselves.
just like the A,B's
Christine2 sent me a pile of info re a seminar she attended . brilliant stuff
I am going to get photo copies done . should have long ago but you know how things go on the long finger.
When I do I will post you a copy .
Mari

Hi Mari, glad you found the notes helpful but can I ask you not to copy them please? Jo Tucker the lady who organised the seminar did it for no cost & the only way to recoup her expenses is for people to buy the notes that si why they are not on the net yet. When I attended it I bought quite a few & gave a donation so copied the amount of notes I`d paid for (to save me carrying them back!). They are not expensive & the details are on here somewhere so I will go & look for them & put them on again.
Christine2

Hi all found it! for anyone interested in obtaining the notes from the seminar given by Drs. J Dodds G Sampson & S Gould :-
J Tucker
73 Osidge Lane,
Southgate,
London N14 5JL.
The cost is £3.50+p&p, which in UK is £1 with cheques made payable to CIMDA
Christine2 :)

Ok Christine sorry forgot that . Mari

Gwen,

Up to what age can you give the puppies colostrum? Do they have to get it very early i.e. within 24 hours of birth or can you give it later? Is it still effective if given later?

Theresa

As far as I know it needs to be given as early as possible, and within the first 24 hours is preferable. I suppose that as long as you get it in to them over the first 3 days it is better than not any. I will check and see if there is any point in giving it after day 3, unless anyone else knows?
Gwen

Hi Dot, if you look on the net you'll find a load of stuff on vaccinations. Many vets and even some pharmaceutical companies are coming round to the view that yearly boosters for viral disease probably aren't needed. There just isn't enough clear cut research to be absolutely sure, but most seem to advise full puppy vaccs plus the first booster at least. If your dogs are likely to have contact with rats, you also need to bear in mind that the lepto vaccine isn't even effective for a full 12 months, never mind more.