I am in need of help with my 3 Cocker spaniel bitches, aged 3, 2 and 18 months, the middle black one is very excitable and a little nervy
, when she reached 2 years of age and just after her second season, she starting going for the other two, not just snapping but a proper
bite which then resulted in fights as the other defends itself.  we have tried to get it under control, she is not allowed on sofas beds etc,
I am unable to show her much 
attention as this will result in her going for on of the other two, she does agility with my daughter which we may have to stop
as when she gets back she again has a pop at one, there is no warning no growls she may be laying nice on her beanbag then just dives at the
other.  Its now at the point where I am constantly on edge and feel she would be better off rehomed with no other pets or children, but this would
break my daughters heart.   I give her skullcap and valarian on a daily basis which does help but would welcome any advice anyone has to enable
me to keep her and have a happy home

Sadly this is a common occurrence in bitches, dogs fight and forget, bitches who fight never forget.

You can try spaying the two peaceful ones but that may not work - it may mean keeping them apart or rehoming in the long run 9 times out of 10 it is impossible to regain peace.

The saying Dogs fight for breeding rights and Bitches for breathing rights is unfortunately very near the truth.

Yes like Nova says once bitches start to fight there is usually no choice but to rehome one of them (or keep them totally separate) as nothing works and once it gets serious, it could result in the death of one or more dogs. Spaying has, in my experience, no effect whatsoever unless the fights ONLY occur when one bitch is in season or pregnant. Then it can work.

Your bitches are too close in age sometimes it is fine, sometimes depending on characters it causes hierarchy issues and vying for the top spot.

Don't stop the agility it's not the agility that is the problem it is the pecking order of the household, tbh doing all the 'not allowed on sofas' etc makes no difference if there is no clear alpha here, the 3 year old is not an old enough role model or apparently character for either of the other two bitches to accept as an authority figure, it may not have been a problem but now you have a character that is challenging, now that they are all young ladies the role is up for grabs, not something you can decide.

The black bitch appears to be the more dominant from what you say, IMO I would accept her as the alpha bitch now, though it would be best to have a behaviourist clarify and take a look at the situation, only by going on what you describe can be dangerous as you may be reading things wrongly, we can't really see on the internet. :-)

The most important thing is that YOU are in charge. Does the black bitch draw blood? I know you said she bites, but a real bite would bleed, or is this all just noise and teeth and snapping? If it is the latter she will just be showing her newfound authority and working at putting the other two in their place, talking in the only way she knows how, they will eventually abide, by licking her mouth and giving out submitting signals and basically sucking up to her, or they will fight back. In which case you have major problems.

Personally, I'm not sure whether to tell you to leave things and see if they settle and allow her to install herself in her way as alpha or to step in and show no tolerance of the behaviour, by putting her in time outs that's because I can't see for myself the body language from all 3 dogs, we may all very well give conflicting advice, you need someone there to watch and assess.

I really would recommend a behaviourist, who understands hierarchy problems.

Thanks for all your comments
This has been going on since last June, the youngest one is the eldest bitches daughter who was born Oct before the middle on became aggressive in June,
The youngest does show dominant behaviour but just growls, we do put them in their place, they know we are the boss, the eldest is often scared to enter a room
and does so slowly,   The attack from the middle one is mostly unprovoked, the odd occasion if the youngest one growls at her, but to answer your question
when I split them up I have often received bites from the middle one and I can  you tell the bite draws blood, although the dogs dont seem to get too injured, but I am
in there immediatelyto split them up.

I wouldnt really like her to be Alpha bitch, she has never really been the most stable dog
The other two are stable dogs the eldest would be ideal given her nature she is really sweet, good with people and
other dogs.
When the middle one is at agility she will get snappy at other dogs who get too close to her also.
When you give her a hug she cries which I have heard is a sign of dominance, but I dont know for sure.
I am just trying to give you as much info as I can so as to enable you to help.

Splitting up dogs fighting or challenging can often cause injury to us, but if the two younger bitches have been at it since June with no injury to themselves I wouldn't personally see this as serious and may well be inclined to let them get on with it and sort it out themselves, sometimes dog language can be frightening to us, only if blood and injury came from the dogs would I become worried.  Sometimes we can interfere and stop the natural order of things.

The younger dog will learn her place (hopefully) you say sometimes the younger one growls and sometimes it is unprovoked but dogs show all types of undermining body language to one another, which may be what the black bitch reacts to, if the younger does not learn her place you will need to supervise well and keep them separate or you re-home, the black bitch is very reactive, but that may well change with age and the stability of everyones role.

She doesn't bite or snap at you other than during a jostle with the younger bitch does she?

but if the two younger bitches have been at it since June with no injury to themselves I wouldn't personally see this as serious and may well be inclined to let them get on with it and sort it out themselves

Depends on what you mean by INJURY, though. Small bites can be missed in a heavy coat. When I had two Mali bitches in season in February, they both went for my oldest (spayed) Mali bitch. She LOOKED okay -bit wet in the coat, slight wound inside one ear, that was all. However even TODAY I am plucking scabs off her coat -she must have had literally dozens of small wounds that scabbed over but were never seen as her coat is so thick. When I examined her I saw NOTHING but a slightly reddened skin, yet for a couple of weeks now I have plucked scabs every day, you see a tuft of hair sticking out and pull it out and at the end is a scab. And I could see nothing of this when it happened -it took weeks. (During which time she was also bathed, and I still didn't see the wounds.)

She has bitten my daughter who is 12 once, she needed to move her off her beanbag and she snapped at her, causing a mark
on her tummy,  she was distraught as she is her dog,  we nearly started the process of re-homing her then, but she begged
for her to be given another chance, if she ever did it again she would have to be re-homed. 
She went for the younger dog yesterday and she was squealing, when I pulled the middle one off and put her in another room
for quite a long time (this was mainly for me to chill out)  

I would be horrified if a dog ever took a swipe at me or my child, there are all sorts of reasons for dogs doing this, sometimes understandable behaviours and misunderstandings between humans and dogs, when you just look at the picture that she is reactive to your other bitch, she snaps at other dogs in agility, and has snapped at your daughter too, it doesn't make a great picture or show a great temperament. I wouldn't like a bitch that behaved like this, especially when you have the older one who behaves as you would expect a Cocker to, there are bad breeders and Cockers with dodgy temperaments out there, she may be one. :-(

But, all these things could just be misunderstandings and mismanagement, I really, really would advise that behaviourist just to clarify.

could it be that cocker rage syndrome? or is that just when they bite humans?

or is this all just noise and teeth and snapping? If it is the latter she will just be showing her newfound authority and working at putting the other two in their place

i thought alpha dogs took authority without violence? or am i mistaken?

They sound like they have a lot of issues, the fighting is probably a symptom of your overall lack of control as is the biting when asked to move!

You really need pro help, but are unlikely to find any that doesn't advise rehome/euthanise at this level of aggression.

I have worked similar cases with great success but it takes a bit of time and of course I'm an experienced trainer.

I use e collars and teach the dogs commands with them, this then allows you to tell them what to do (leave, off ect) which enhances your control and stops the aggression.

Adam

NB: ELECTRIC COLLARS ARE BANNED IN WALES - JEFF, MODS.

i thought alpha dogs took authority without violence? or am i mistaken?

They have to show their worth somehow, generally as pups grow through play they show their prowess, it is often the more intelligent who take that role, sometimes the most braun, usually a bit of both. And yes, they often just slide into position, the other dogs usually don't challenge what they see as a strong character. The trouble is the ages are so close but still at different maturities levels so it generally takes a while to settle the situation.

Once the bitch is in position she will no longer need to prove herself just that look usually does the trick and if any up and coming youngsters get too cheeky, lower ranking bitches and dogs will take care of them, because the ages here are so close and characters are different there is no structure so you end up with a bit of a mess really, especially if you have a reactive bitch like this and a younger bitch not quite sure what position she will take.

It could very well all sort out, or it could just blow up to be a real mess???????? That's the trouble when we put dogs together, especially so close in age.

Feel quite positive at ruling out Cocker Rage, wouldn't rule out a vet check though, check ears, teeth and eyes, my mother once had a call from a friend who thought her Cocker had rage syndrome, very snappy and reactive, turned out she had a bad tooth. It could be possible that this Cocker has bad eyes might be why she reacts when other dogs come near her in agility too.

Worth checking out Wendy............ take her for eyes, ears and teeth check to also rule these out.

Wendy,

I've had to live through dogs fighting and its pretty scary when they really go for it. I've also been bitten badly myself too..
I really recommend you seek out a very good behaviourist(not one who charges silly money or is a dog whisperer). Have a look on APBC http://www.apbc.org.uk/ to see if there is someone nearby. Your vet should also have a list that they recommend too. Or if you say what area you are in maybe someone on here can help with recommendations.
What ever you decide please don't leave your daughter alone with this bitch and also no ecollars, that won't help.

It maybe that you have to rehome one of your bitches, but if you are prepared to give it a go there are some good behaviourists out there who you can work with.
Don't get in a behaviourist who says one way works and that it is. You need to have someone in and seeing the bitches in action and how they react towards each other and for the behaviourist to make a personalised behaviour programme.

I tolally agree We were horrified when she took a swipe at my daughter, We always said we would not keep a dog especially if it went for a child
as you say, but we did think we could sort it out with time and training, however we do keep getting this episodes, which take you by surprise
as we are very careful as to the triggers and try to avoid these.
We have always known she was a bit unstable but I cannot see a solution as we have tried everything and was just hoping that somebody may
have a solution which we had not tried
I really know in my heart what I need to do, she would be a super dog on her own without other dogs in the family or children, 

Thanks Sue
I will look on the website, I had thought about it but heard they charged loads of money and told you what you already knew.

Many people, actually some on this very board live with dogs with iffy and reactive characters, they learn as you have about the triggers, and how to live with them and secure safety for other dogs and themselves sometimes. I'm only pointing this out as she is your daughters dog, your daughter obviously loves her and does agility with her and even when bitten still wanted to keep her, to re-home her may break her heart.

She is only 2 years and maybe with a visit from a behaviourist and some training tips you can turn things completely around, I know you are thinking a behaviourist may be expensive, but personally for your daughters sake I would swallow it, she won't get over a dog she loves being re-homed without trying every single thing first.

If the behaviourist thinks this is not hierarchy issues there is the option of a dog gate to separate her as well.

Just some things to think about, if your daughter hadn't bonded so closely it would be an easier decision for you, trouble is if this bitch is just a bad character the problem is being passed onto others, maybe her breeder is a port of call for you, that would be my first option if things don't change. :-)

Thanks for your help I will look into getting a visit from a behaviourist and take it from there.

Things have improved since last year,  its certainly not an everyday occurrance, but I would not consider E Collar, shes certainly not
at that level of aggression.

appreciate your comments, they have helped.

Is she insured? If she is you may find the cost for referral to a behaviourist is covered by that.

NB: ELECTRIC COLLARS ARE BANNED IN WALES - JEFF, MODS

No, thats not correct.

This (below)  is correct and conforms to the Welsh law:

It is legal to sell buy & own an e-collar in Wales.
It is illegal to use the units >SPECIFICALY< and >ONLY< if the receiver is attached to any collar.
.

Thanks Sue
I will look on the website, I had thought about it but heard they charged loads of money and told you what you already knew.

This youtube video link is very informative, it is users experience and feedback about them, I'd recommend you read it

http://tinyurl.com/69p9k69

.

I found some more recent feedback on the forum, someone who went to one, see her comments and click link at bottom to go to full post.

Sillysue Date 30.06.10 07:19 GMT
So sorry to be controversial, but I have seen a behaviourist highly recommended on this website several times ( no names) and my stomach turns each time I see the name. With this behaviourist my poor dog was forced into situations
|
under a pro. body and cost a fortune, but i believed that it would be worth the cost but was sooo mistaken
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/124063.html
.

I am constantly on edge and feel she would be better off rehomed

Being realistic is not always what people want to hear, but, looking at your situation, as you describe it. I cannot see this ever being resolved without all 3 dogs going to a residential multi method trainer with a lot of experience of seriously aggressive situations, I say residential as that removes them all from the unmanageble situation & a few days or a week in kennels quietnes dogs down, that makes them more susceptible for training.

But he or she would have a problem as well, namely, he would have to train the dogs to your own tailor made situation at home & the fact that one dog has been intensly rewarding itself (aggression is reward behaviour) by attacking suddenly & without warning, an act, which based on the way you describe things, would give that dog an immensly intense & prolongued reward (biteing behaviours) in little more than a fraction of a second, there would only need to be one incidence of this after training, and it would start all over again, back to where you are now.

If a residential trainer who actually did have such a wide variety (rare) of experience & skills took them on IMO they would still have to be a part of their eventual reintegration back into your family & home & only a fool of a trainer (behaviourists are nothing more) would suggest "Its all ok now, it will never repeat". So, thats my opinion of the entirety of what you describe.
.

NB: ELECTRIC COLLARS ARE BANNED IN WALES - JEFF, MODS

No, thats not correct.

This (below)  is correct and conforms to the Welsh law:

It is legal to sell buy & own an e-collar in Wales.
It is illegal to use the units >SPECIFICALY< and >ONLY< if the receiver is attached to any collar.

Dorf,
Thank you for the clarification (it's specifically by the way) although I have more pressing matters than semantics.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO USE A SHOCK UNIT WHEN ATTACHED TO A COLLAR IN WALES.

Therefore rendering it useless for "training"

Jeff.

It's the use of shock collars that is banned in Wales, just as the use of gin traps is banned throughout the UK, but it's legal to own them both. No point in having one, unless it's to display on your wall!

(it's specifically by the way)
LOL I know, but compared to my maths my spelling shines like a mirror in the sun, i even missout on spell check sometimes.

Therefore rendering it useless for "training"

No, harness attached receivers are the same, not uncommon in Belgium generally and very common use in Belgian Ringsports, sometimes here.

In the below example of swat dogs you can see the receiver on the top of the harness on the shoulders, that's legal use in Wales

Legal use in Wales = harness, receiver on shoulders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc5P8n3LRak

In this example it would be illegal use in Wales, the receiver is used on the rump but its fixed to a collar, that collar would make it illegal in Wales

Illegal use in Wales - training by multiple stimuli touch on rump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc5P8n3LRak
.

I look forward to the first test case, harness or collar.
Jeff.

Hi Wendy
I have cockers too.  From what you have posted, I have made the following observations.
YOU are deciding who is topdog and are messing up the proper pack heiracy.  Instead, I would let your 2 yr old become top dog and treat accordingly.  She gets fed first, the best seat, most attention but...With your constant supervision, you need to raise your kids above her(particularly the daughter she bit).  I would make your daughter feed her but instead of just putting the bowl down, get your daughter to make the bitch sit in front of her and your daughter pretends she is eating out the bowl, after a min or so, tell the dog to sit and reward her with 'the left-overs' from your daughters meal.  Sit with the bitch on the sofa and then get your daughter to enter the room, tell the bitch to get off and your daughter takes her seat then you pay daughter lots of attention while totally ignoring the bitch.  The bitch should no longer be allowed upstairs, this area is reserved for the highest members of the pack(you and the kids), no dogs at all.  If she continues to place herself above your daughter, she should no longer be allowed on furniture.  Your daughter should also run through an obedience rountine daily to exert her dominance over the dog.  ALL WITH ADULT SUPERVISION!!
Our 11 month old pup did this to our daughter when she tried to move her off the sofa.  It's a problem but it is easy solved. 
The fighting will stop when you let the pack sort itself.  The only dog is the 2 yr old for the time being as far as attention goes.  The older one doesn't want to be topdog, hence the reason she is taking so long to 'creep' into the company.  She doesn't want to upset the topdog(2yr old).  You must be treating the pup better than the 2 yr old hence the fact that the 2 yr old needs to keep putting the pup back in her place.  Once you sort out your ideas on who you think should be top, the pack will be a lot happier and the 2 yr old will be less nervous if she knows you are in control.
Look up NILIF training for dominant dogs and use this for all your dogs but remember and treat the 2 yr old like a queen for now(except above humans!!)
We did all this and we now have a very happy pack.  My oldie will still give the 11 month old a nip but only to keep her in line and it does teach the rest of the pack manners which we never could.  If you keep more than one dog, you need to be aware of pack mentality to understand why dogs behave the way they do. 
Good luck.
I have edited to add that this is absolutely not Rage syndrome which is very, very rare.
Also, I did all this with my older bitch and my daughter(10 yrs) but I supervised constantly and knew my dog well enough to know that she would not 'go at' my daughter while doing the food training.  If you are concerned, keep the bitch on-lead while doing this.

I am sorry to say that once again this is a thread that has forgotten the original poster who is desperate for help and practical advice and once again turned in to a pro/con argument about the use of what to me is a cruel device.

Thank you for returning to the topic cracar - you posted whilst I typed so I was not referring to you.

I was thinking exactly the same as you, Jackie. 
PS  I think this is the sort of thing they meant in the other topic (wink, wink)

Hi Cracar.
Thanks for your comments
You are quite right in saying we are saying who gets top dog status, but also at the same time making sure they all kow that it
is us that are boss.  My daughter can make all the dogs get off the sofa, she also feeds and eats first, but she also has lots
of play and hugging of them.
The middle one did have a high status of making sure she came in the room first, also being allowed on the sofa, until she
started going for the others when they walked past, so that it why we have stopped her going on the sofa etc,  we feed
them all in separate rooms as their have been times when she will go for one if they come near her when shes eating.
We make sure we enter a room first but it is quite hard as we make them all sit, she will whinge cry and shake and as soon
as you start to open the door if she can she will try to bolt through it making such a racket barking etc, which sets the other two
off,
Please dont think this is an everyday occurance we can go fo a couple of weeks or more without incidence, but we are aware
of body movement, tail up, head down etc, which enables us to chastice before anything happens, its just when there is no warning
no growl, I find that hard to deal with.
Is it not possible that they just see you as boss without having a boss within the dogs, maybe thats where we are going wrong, but we
do see her as unstable to be topdog.

Is it not possible that they just see you as boss without having a boss within the dogs,

No, because the whole idea about dogs believing people can be a pack leader we now know is wrong -it doesn't work like this. Dogs know they are dogs and that we are not, and we will never be part of their pack. :) Therefore you eating before them, going into a room before them etc makes no difference.

If that is the case, we have a problem if she continues to want to be leader, as I dont think a leader should attack another to bring it into line, 

She'll stop attacking when the others accept her in that role, and she is supported by you in it.

She started attacking when she had that role and was more frequent than it is now, its only because we have demoted her that its improved, but I need to make it stop completely.
Last July after her season it was a daily occurance with the eldest who is peace itself, unprovoked just being next to her.

Wendy, I can totally understand your frustration, I really can, as I have been there.  When my oldie 'goes' for one of the others to bring them in line or even has a grumble, it makes me really not like her very much but I had one of the other trainers from our class come to my home and just watch the interaction.  Turns out I was missing signals from the pup which was setting off the older one. Just slight but it was sly looks or running into the room past the older one and rushing through doors, etc. 
What about spaying the trouble maker?  You said yourself that it's been since her season and you don't show so I would maybe look into that.  Cockers, I've found, don't really hold a grudge.  They have a tussle then its over as soon as it began.  That's my opinion anyhoo!

Yes we have thought about spaying, the vet said to wait till her next season which will be June.
I can see why she would have a go at the pup, she does have a dominant nature, but not the older one she really does nothing to bring on an attack, I think Ive just had enough of having fights, and the constant struggle of watching where all are and not being able to relax, and of telling my daughter to (leave the dogs alone) when she sould be able to play an hug them without me fearing there will be a fight.

If you do decide to spay do not spay the dominant one but the other two - I have to say it is not likely to work although it may as it removes the challenge to what she sees as her top bitch status. The problem as I see things at the moment is you can't spay your daughter.

I would suggest a behaviourist also - for all the advice given on here, none of us have actually seen these dogs in their home environment - there may be triggers or subtle behaviours that are being missed which are crucial to what's going on.

It could even be just the combination of personalities, or too many dogs for the instigator; it's impossible to say without seeing them.

Have all the dogs had a vet check?  Apologies if this has been asked already :-)

Hi Nikita
Yes Ive had her to the vets, he suggested spaying her after her next season, especially if she gets worse just after her season, but as he says this my make no difference, he also gave her some tablets, but she became worse after taking her off skullcap valarian and taking the ones from the vets, so he said to keep with the skullcap.

Has he actually given her a thorough exam (and bloods) and the others too?  Aggression can stem from medical problems and dogs have been known to attack other dogs who are ill.

If the scullcap & valerian is working great, it might be worth trying the valerian liquid - I use it for Remy's firework/thunder fears here and it works a treat, it also helps a bit when everyone is a bit tense.

i agree that spaying is unlikely to make a difference. my two are excactly the same as before and the dominant one still scent marks the same as before she was spayed. in fact they squabble more since being done if anything

> they squabble more since being done if anything

There is some evidence that removing the 'softer' female hormones can make spayed bitches more prone to aggression.

my staffy x became more dog aggressive after being spayed at 2 years old, became more nervous too