Hi Guys, just registered today but have been reading the board for a while. It looks like there are a few Cav owners here and I just wondered what you think about the latest developments in the proposed KC/BVA scheme for SM/CM. It was reported in this week's Dog World but the 19 comments have been removed along with the facility to comment on the article...

Looking at the CKCS site the latest proposal seems to be that unlike all other KC/BVA schemes, MRI results will not be published in the Breed Records Supplements! Instead, the names of the scanned dogs will appear each quarter without their results.

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

I understand that this is supposed to increase take-up of the scheme. But I'm not sure how it will help puppy buyers or bitch owners who are short-listing stud dogs.

And if it's OK for SM/CM results to be anonymous, why not HD, ED, eye tests etc etc. I can't help thinking that this is a backward step.

Incidentally I don't have Cavs, though do have friends with them. And I do have another Toy breed where SM/CM has also been found.

I'm sure that serious breeders know each dog's results through the grapevine.  It's certainly a step in the right direction to get Cavaliers scanned.

If you're really interested, then you'll have the names of the tested dogs - ring the owners.  That's what puppy buyers and bitch owners could do too.

Which other breed do you have where syringomyelia has been found?

I think the obvious answer would be to do what was done with PKD in cats -publish only CLEAR results, that way nobody need to worry about bad results being seen, and anyone looking to buy a pup/use a stud/whatever can simply pick from the ones listed. (Question is whether just As should be listed, or C and D as well.)

I'm sure that serious breeders know each dog's results through the grapevine.  It's certainly a step in the right direction to get Cavaliers scanned.

Yes but there already IS a list of MRI scanned dogs in existence so there would be little or no difference, and it's really not of much use with all secrecy involved -and speaking as a puppy buyer who not long ago was looking for a healthy pet, it did me no good at all. For a start there was no way of finding out contact details of owners. Also not sure people would be very happy to be contacted and asked about their dogs' results.

> I'm sure that serious breeders know each dog's results through the grapevine

Personally I don't like the concept of a 'grapevine' where health tests are concerned. And not everyone is an honest person either unfortunately, so some perhaps may not tell the truth about their dogs results, and no-one can check. I feel that having anonymity is a backward step. Most people are very pleased with the KC's Dog Health Test Search and of course this won't work with this proposal.

SM/CM has also been found in Griffons.

Personally I don't like the concept of a 'grapevine' where health tests are concerned.
I don't see that's it's anyone's business unless they want to use a dog or buy a puppy, then it's up to them to ask the questions about the dam, sire and other ancestors.

Do you have a friend called Jemima, Esme? :)

Hello Esme,

Im a great believer that maximum participation will be achieved by enlightenment, trust and coopperation.

The biggest obstacle in Cavalier Health at the moment is division caused by mistrust, rumours and partisan point scoring.

Im for leading by example.

Yes but there already IS a list of MRI scanned dogs in existence so there would be little or no difference, and it's really not of much use with all secrecy involved -and speaking as a puppy buyer who not long ago was looking for a healthy pet, it did me no good at all. For a start there was no way of finding out contact details of owners
I bought a number of breed handbooks before I bought my first puppy.  All serious breeders details were in that. :) 
I would have no problem asking the question if I was going to buy a puppy with their dog in the pedigree.  I can imagine that breeders wouldn't be best pleased if it were only nosey trouble makers asking. :)

> (Question is whether just As should be listed, or C and D as well.)

Thing is, the new KC/BVA grades do not map onto the current As and Ds etc. A new SM grade of 0 means no syrinx present, and a grade of 1 is for a dog with a v small syrinx (of under 2mm) over the age of 6 years. If the dog with a small syrinx  is under the age of 6 then it will be graded a 2. All dogs showing syrinxes larger than 2mm will be graded 3, with or without symptoms. (At least that will remove any subjective element). And of course, there will also be 3 grades for CM.

As for  > publish only CLEAR results
it could be a good idea but do you mean only those graded 0? Or would you include 2 and 1 as those would previously have been graded A?

> Do you have a friend called Jemima, Esme? :-)

Certainly not, I think that person is the spawn of the devil! But I do think health tests should be in the public domain.

it could be a good idea but do you mean only those graded 0? Or would you include 2 and 1 as those would previously have been graded A?

THAT I would leave to those that know what they are doing, as this is a breed where I'm a pet owner and nothing else. :) My point was I cannot see anyone objecting to having GOOD results made public, and it would give puppy buyers etc a starting point.

> and it's really not of much use with all secrecy involved

This happens all too much in many breeds of dogs where health testing is done but results aren't published. Why?? Why can't people be open about results? If they aren't good enough then no dog should ever be bred from, simple as that!!!  I seriously don't get the fact that things need to be hidden, why? If all health test results were made public then it would be far easier for good honest breeding for the health of any breed and for the future of many breeds of dogs. Why can't we as puppy buyers know the results? It would help paint a picture of linage results too. Hips, Elbows and Eyes are made available to all, why should any other health test results be any different??

Sorry this is not to you Marianne, but adding in on your comment you made.

> It would help paint a picture of linage results too. Hips, Elbows and Eyes

I agree, as a breeder you do need to look back through those dogs in the pedigrees. Sometimes for example in other breeds, you can get a dog with a high hip score from a low- scoring line, who could be a better bet as a stud dog than a dog with a lower score whose ancestors had high scores. All this is possible when results are published.

All this is possible when you have maximum submission to AHT for EBV calculation.

> All this is possible when you have maximum submission to AHT for EBV calculation.

Yes that's true. But EBVs are a long way off for most breeds at the moment. Labradors are first up and this will be much later than promised. All good reasons I expect. But I'm thinking of those breeders and puppy buyers who need the relevant info sooner rather than later.

As you rightly said it is a proposed scheme, to be taken to members for views.

If your intention is to affect the outcome I fear you are in the wrong place.

As I said enlightenment, trust and coopperation.

Perhaps Dog World will open up its comments next week.

> If your intention is to affect the outcome I fear you are in the wrong place

I simply wondered what CKCS folk on here thought of this proposal. FWIW, I don't have any show-going Cav folk amongst my friends, just pet owners so am interested to hear what you all think. None of my friends have a dog afflicted with SM, the oldest is 10 years. But all three families have their dogs on heart meds. 

And I'll look in on Dog World next week. It's unusual for them to close a comments section.

As you own a toy breed which can be affected by SM can I ask if you or your chosen breed are contributing to the Feotal Tissue Research? Many believe this is a huge step forward and will have more to give breeders to work with than scans do.

> can I ask if you or your chosen breed are contributing to the Feotal Tissue Research?

Early days for us here but sounds like a good idea.

"None of my friends have a dog afflicted with SM, the oldest is 10 years. But all three families have their dogs on heart meds"

MVD always has been and always will be, the biggest health issue afflicting the cavalier - NOT SM.

> But I do think health tests should be in the public domain.

ditto, not much point otherwise.

I agree. Even BAER results aren't officially centrally collated.

>> can I ask if you or your chosen breed are contributing to the Feotal Tissue Research?
> Early days for us here but sounds like a good idea.

If you have a small breed affected by SM you should donate to the Feotal Research programme, as it will not only help your chosen breeds but also help children affected by SM.

Can you give more info Polly.  What tissue is required, is it stillborn puppies, placenta's cord blood?????

Still born and as I understand it puppies who die in the nest at a very young age. It is hard to do as we all know we get very attached to our dogs and to puppies no matter how new born, but essential if the research is to provide answers to the breeds and as I said to children.

>> If you have a small breed affected by SM you should donate to the Feotal Research programme

Is this what you mean Polly?

http://embeecav.blogspot.com/2010/05/foetal-tissue-research-and-cavalier.html

Imelda McGonnell is now asking for any age of Cavalier that has passed away -and for any reason.

All details are also on the webpage link posted by Esme at the top of this thread.

A control group of non- cavaliers is also needed but all info can be had from Sheena Stevens at the same link.

This is an academic study into the embrylogy of the Cavalier and will take many years for a report to be written. It is not looking for a cure, a solution nor is it offering to give us a breeding answer - just a cause.

The race for the genome is being conducted by Rusbridge et.al here and in Montreal.They are ultimately looking to give a test for breeders.

I had not updated my information since I last spoke to Imelda McGonnell thanks for the update Toolz. I know when I spoke to her she was keen for any breed affected by SM to contact her and hopefully take part in the research. She was at that time telling me that she was hopeful of giving the cavalier breeders something very positive to work with.

As with all these things it takes a lot of time and changes cannot be made overnight, (if only we all had the magic wand or potion to cure all ills)...

> if only we all had the magic wand or potion to cure all ills

Amen to that!