White boxers occur in many litters.

Since the creation of the breed over a hundred years ago in Germany there have always been white boxers. A white bulldog was included in the mix during the first creation of the breed. Many of the early boxers were patched or pied in colour.

The modern standard was written to include the " must not be more than one third white" to partly avoid the white gene swamping the breed.

They may be unilaterally or bi-laterally deaf and should be tested for deafness as puppies by their breeder. Only a small proportion of these puppies will be truly deaf especially if they have patches of colour on their heads and around their ear area.

Many breeders find homes for these puppies as pets (but stipulate that they should not be bred from because of the high risk of producing deaf puppies of their own), and are often sold at a reduced price.

From time to time an advert will state "rare white boxer puppies for sale" at an inflated price. They are not rare but ethical breeders do try to reduce the incidence by not using two heavily white marked dogs together.

Wikipedia has some information on boxers including an old photo of one of the very first boxer dog shows in Munich.

It can be clearly seen that about two thirds are white or pied in the photo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(dog)

It also has some photos of some of the earliest champions   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Earlyboxers.jpg

Hi tooolz,

it is interesting to note that, whenever l mated a "plain" bitch to a flashy dog, l never ever had a white puppy, but when l mated 2 flashies together, l nearly always had at least 1 white.

Once, l went with someone to see a litter, and when we got there, l was horrified to see a white, male dog - l just knew that he would be the sire of the puppies. It turned out that he was indeed the sire, but the mother was a plain bitch. Anyway, the puppies were brought in 1 by 1, and would you believe it, every one of them was perfectly marked. Talk about being green with envy LOL. There were 10 of them in all, every one of them with perfect white markings! I have never seen such a perfectly marked litter before or since. Sods law eh?

I too have seen a litter exactly like that.  However, taken to the Nth degree, if all boxers were bred this way ie plain to white, the plains would eventually disappear, leaving you with no choice  but to mate flashy to flashy and then you increase the number of whites so what do you do then?  If you used them in your breeding programme there would be no plains to mate them to so, you mate them to a flashy and get ever increasing numbers of whites.  That's without even considering the 'deaf' issue. 

Im curious what does "flashy" mean?
When I was a child my auntie had a bitch called Shera, she could not control her and she was given away. All my life I have wanted a boxer now my new step Mum has Alfie and he's lovely.

'Flashy' describes a boxer with white socks or stockings, a white blaze on one or both sides of the muzzle and extending up between the eyes, a white chest and sometimes a partial or full white collar -

http://www.turnipnet.com/eastendmemories/dogs/boxer.jpg

Slightly OT, my friend has a white Boxer but he's white with freckles all over, never seen one like that before, gorgeous boy, and he's definitely not deaf. Glad that the plains are doing better in the ring, if only more people would understand that they should not mate flashy to flashy, sounds like it's the same as merle/merle which I think more people now know you should not do.

Thanks I must admint I prefer the flashy types then! the picture was a stunner!

> Thanks I must admint I prefer the flashy types then! the picture was a stunner!

and that's the problem, so do judges and breeders which then means there are nto so many good plain ones to breed to the flashy ones, so flashy is mated to flashy with more whites produced than one would prefer.

As these days the breeding and show dogs are one and the same, it means few people will keep a plain to show, as it really has to be outstanding to do as well.

Hi Barbara, l always used to keep at least 1 plain one, just because my very first Boxer was a plain dog, and l have always liked plain ones ever since. Of course, l had to keep flashy ones to show, as that is what judges prefer, but in my opinion it was easy to throw the baby out with the bath water, as some plain ones were superior to their flashy counterparts.  In fact, generally, my best show winning dogs/bitches came from a plain bitch. 

What causes the deafness? and if you mated a plain to a flashy would you mate subsiquent pups always to a plain or every other generation?

Never studied Boxers beffore so find it quite facinating.  i would hate to have the responsibilty of breeding them, it sould quite an art.

>What causes the deafness?

The lack of pigmentation in the inner ear (right inside the head, beyond the ear drum).

>and if you mated a plain to a flashy would you mate subsiquent pups always to a plain or every other generation?

It would depend on each puppy.

Thanks for the rply, its an interesting subject.

Would this apply to any other breeds?  that are not a natrual white like samoyds or Spitz (some).

There are many breeds where the lack of pigment cells in the inner ear with white dogs can cause dogs to be deaf. 

The best known are White Boxers and Dalmatians, but white Bull Terriers, predominantly White Collies, especially if the head is white, and others. 

Blue eyes (again denoting lack of pigment) are also linked to deafness in white dogs.

http://www.steynmere.com/DALM_DEAFNESS.html
is an interestng article written by geneticist and Boxer breeder Dr Bruce Cattanach.

Here is also an article written by Dr Bruce Cattanach on white markings the causes and inheritance
with special reference to the boxer.
http://www.steynmere.com/Boxerama74.html

http://www.steynmere.com/WHITE-MARKINGS.html

There has been alot of debate lately as the FCI have accepted the German Boxer Clubs
breed standard of including the white Boxer as an acceptable breed standard colour.
The jury is still out if by doing so they will make the breed prone to 'deafness' in generations to come.

The Germans can do what they like re: the whites boxacrazy but there won't be any joining my household ;-)  I'll stick to the plain and flashy varieties :-)

Just replying to the first in the thread...

If you had a mismark, for example a white boxer, which was outstanding in every way (obviously apart from the colour!) and there were no health problems linked to being white just the colour was undesirable would it be ethical to breed from them as surely they must contribute to the gene pool in some way if well matched with a bitch/dog that complemented their pedigree??  I hope that makes sense!

btw I have no intentions of breeding my white boxer just incase anyone thought otherwise but it is something I have always wondered.

I would say emphatically no!   OK - so you could BAER-test him and ascertain that he was not deaf ....but he could still produce puppies that might not test clear - what would you do then?  

I meant if there were no health problems linked to colour, just a colour that wasn't looked on as desirable - perhaps I didn't explain myself well

Why use a white (even if it is fully health tested), which is an unacceptable colour as far as the standard is concerned, when you could use a healthy plain, which IS an acceptable colour.  It's a no-brainer IMHO. You would also be ensuring that no more unacceptable whites were produced if you used a plain.  There are enough health issues to worry about in the breed without opening up another can of worms re: hearing problems.

Hi , i have a flashy male , and from his breeder i was told under no circumstance should i wish to breed him in the future do i breed him with a full white ! due to the complications that can arise in the pups. I have also been advised to breed him with a block bitch with black mask to reduce the number of whites. I mean i havnt even considered breeding him yet or even at all but i totally see the reason and understand and everyone wants to try and elimate these defects and breeders only want healthy pups.

Oh I agree but I just wondered if in any breed if there was a colour which was recessive and had no health issues linked to colour but genotypically and phenotypically (apart from colour but if it's recessive it could be 'bred out' the resulting litter by using a dominant colour) could contribute to the gene pool in a positive way is there any reason why they shouldn't be used?  This is purely hypothetical and I have no idea if such breeds exist with non-desirable recessive colours that are not negatively linked to a health problem.  Phew!

Georgepig, white boxers can be considered as coloured boxers but with way too much white - with the resultant deafness risk.
So the more white, the more likely a white head/ear area can be produced.

No one would deliberately introduce an unacceptably high risk of deafness by adding a white boxer into the mix.
Yes there may be exceptions but this is the general rule of thumb.

I meant totally hypothetically if there was a breed with the wrong colour but NO associated health risks, just the powers that be didn't really like the colour I suppose :-)

I understand the white/deaf link in boxers but I don't think I put myself across properly - I completely agree that breeding with whites is wrong.

Ironically Georgepig, Black boxers are a non-standard or unacceptable colour.

At one time, back in the very early days of the breed in Munich. A very successful but unpopular breeder had a large kennel of Black boxers.
When her fellow breeders gathered to write the first breed standard, the blueprint to which all further boxers would be judged, they declared black boxers as an unacceptable or disqualifying colour, wiping out the whole kennel's future chances of ever winning again.

In other breeds some colours are considered unacceptable by similar flimsy reasoning.

And yet I was always under the impression that excessive white markings were frowned upon because they would be too visible if the dog was called upon to perform guarding duties.  It was only as the boxer gained popularity as a show dog that the flashy white markings were encouraged to make the dogs more 'eyecatching' in the ring.  I think the white was tolerated in the beginning as it was a necessary evil in order to get the type of dogs into the breeding pool and gain the other characteristics that they brought with them.  Just my thoughts but those German breeders were very clever and singleminded :-)

> Slightly OT, my friend has a white Boxer but he's white with freckles all over

My sis has a white Boxer bitch. She has black spots all over her, a couple on her ear are solid black, but the rest (that vay in size from a rain-drop to about the size of a 10p coin) are a 'washed out' black.
She looks like a faded Dalmation (obviously only in colouring, not in shape!) LOL

Yes, that's exactly what Dylan is like - I'd never seen a white boxer that wasn't pure white before!

Ah tooolz so is that how boxers no longer carry the gene for black (or have I just made that up)?

So when the black boxers became unacceptable, but had no health problems related to their colour as the whites do, would they still have been used in breeding programmes if they could contribute to the breed- that is until they became 'extinct' or however it ended up?  Are there colours of poodle which are also considered unacceptable but are not linked to health problems?

It is sad that people come up to me asking if I'm going to breed from George (he's white so no and slightly impossible with no testicles!) as the white ones are different - it seems a lot of people are not aware of the white/deaf connection and could risk easily being conned by unscrupulous BYB or puppy farmers :(

Argh I've deleted my avatar and can't get it back as I don't have any pics on this PC!

> so is that how boxers no longer carry the gene for black (or have I just made that up)?
>
>

They sort of do. All brindles should have black stripes radiating from the spine over a fawn ground. In the late eighties there was a bit of a toodoo about black brindles being too black. It was because their stripes were too close together completely obliterating the fawn.

There are no especial health issues associated with 'blackness' as far as I know.

We have to remember that when breed standards were originaly written up interested parties just sat around and chose what to write. Scientific knowledge, and other variables werent always given priority.
Anecdotally some colours of gundogs appeared to be better workers etc so they were favoured. Breeders must have noticed that some colours were less viable and ommited them.

Did I dream it or does the white/blue eye gene in dogs have a similar effect on dogs as albino does in man?

I am talking of the gene that causes deafness not that present in Sammies, Jap. Spitz & GSDs for example.

Georgepig - That's a good point to make. In TMs we have golds with sabling which are not in the UK standard but can and do produce black and tan pups when mated to B/T. We also have greys which are dilutes. The dilutes can be shown and used in a breeding programme, no problem, but to produce a clear gold, which is what the standard asks for you must mate dilute x dilute.
Thankfully many owners ignore this and produce golds with sabling! :-)

Jeff.

Im not sure if you mean in white boxers...they are not albinos. They have brown eyes and black pigment on lips pads etc.

True albinos are rare in dogs and would no doubt suffer all the problems humans do.

Hi Jeff, that's what I meant in my previous posts although it came across as somewhat muddled.

Tooolz- thank you for your info, it has cleared things up a bit for me.  It's amazing how you get a dog as a pet but end up delving more and more into the depths of the dog world :)